Expand the Idea of What’s Possible & What You Deserve | Ep. 019 - ‘Tine Zekis

Join host Lynn Debilzen in this stirring interview with ‘Tine Zekis on Redraw Your Path!

In this interview, Lynn learns about ‘Tine’s journey from choral singer and aspiring math educator, to software engineer, to author and speaker. Their conversation touches on:

• The challenges that come with over-empathy and internalization of stress, and how it can manifest in physical pain and a voice that lets us know we’re on the wrong path
• Family expectations and legacies, and how to find the balance as a parent between wanting success for your child and letting them find it on their own
• Self-doubt and how to shift your mindset and self-perception to achieve the goals you never thought you’d have for yourself

Tune in for a dynamic discussion on life and growth!

About ‘Tine:

Christine ('Tine) Zekis is an educator turned software engineer, international speaker, and bestselling author of "Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work: The Black Woman's Guide to Conquer Perfectionism, Stop Overthinking & Thrive in Your Career." She is the Founder and CEO of Getting Black Women Paid, which empowers Black women professionals to accelerate their careers and soar past the six-figure mark. 'Tine is a sought-after speaker on panels and at tech conferences where she discusses salary negotiation, career changers, imposter syndrome, and Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging in the industry.

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Connect with ‘Tine:
Website: https://www.tinezekis.com/
Get her book: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work: The Black Woman’s Guide to Conquer Perfectionism, Stop Overthinking & Thrive in Your Career
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinezekis/
Find her on other socials: https://www.facebook.com/tinezekis, https://www.instagram.com/tinezekis/

Resources mentioned:

• Nikole Hannah-Jones quote: "Be the person you needed when you were trying to make it ...and do that for other folks who are coming behind you."

Connect with Lynn:

• www.redrawyourpath.com
• www.lynndebilzen.com
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynndebilzen/

Transcript

Lynn: 0:01

Hey friends, I'm Lynn Debilzen and welcome to Redraw Your Path, a podcast where I share stories of people who have made big changes in their lives and forged their own unique paths. I talk with guests about their moments of messiness, fear, and reframing on their way to where they are now. My goal is to inspire you about the shape your life could take. So let's get inspired. I am so excited to share this episode with you today with'Tine Zekis. Christine, or'Tine Zekis, is an educator turned software engineer, international speaker, and best selling author of Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work: The Black Woman's Guide to Conquer Perfectionism, Stop Overthinking, and Thrive in Your Career. She is the founder and CEO of Getting Black Women Paid, which empowers Black women professionals to accelerate their careers and soar past the six figure mark.'Tine Zekis is a sought after speaker on panels and at tech conferences where she discusses salary negotiation, career changers, imposter syndrome. and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in the industry. I connected with'Tine about a year ago. She spoke at a program I am in, and I just really loved her energy and vibe and everything she had to say. and I, I really hope you enjoy this episode. We get a little emotional, so keep your tissues nearby, and enjoy! Welcome to Redraw Your Path. It's so great to have you here today. How are you?

'Tine: 1:43

I am great. Thank you for having me.

Lynn: 1:46

Yeah, I'm so excited to get into this conversation and share your story with listeners because it's a powerful one. so I like to bookend with my guests and understand where and how they grew up and then what they're doing now and then we'll go back and hear the story of how you got there. So can you give me some context about that childhood and where and how you grew up?

'Tine: 2:11

Absolutely. So I grew up in a suburb of Chicago called Oak Park, specifically because it's a very diverse, it's a diverse town. My folks are interracial, so my mom's white, my dad's black. he's an immigrant from Nigeria. And so I grew up biracial in a town where I actually knew other biracial kids. And, we can get into a whole thing about my, concept of race and how that developed. But, But yeah, so my, my upbringing was in this, very diverse, very liberal town. I grew up pretty, sheltered from, I guess, political things. and Yeah, I loved my childhood. excellent schools and that was the basic upbringing.

Lynn: 2:55

Awesome. I've driven through Oak Park. I think I, I think I've

'Tine: 2:58

Oh yeah?

Lynn: 2:59

So yeah, I have friends that live on the south side of Chicago. And so like driving in through the

'Tine: 3:05

Oh yeah, right. The highway goes right through it. Yeah. There's, there are two, left side on ramps on either side of Oak Park and people always joke it's because Oak Park is too liberal. They couldn't put their on ramps on the right.

Lynn: 3:18

I love that. I love that. Well, and okay, you mentioned growing up as a biracial kiddo and the daughter of an immigrant too. And knowing other biracial children, what did that mean to you? can you talk a little bit more about that?

'Tine: 3:33

Yeah, absolutely. I have a brother, so my house was the only place where I was ever in the majority, right? My brother and I were the two, two biracial people in the house. but, growing up, I, I think I developed my concept of race a little later than some other kids because I think early on, kids start asking questions, Oh, why does that person look different from our family, right? Whereas I just thought everybody looked different, Sue looks like Sue and John looks like John. I didn't understand that there were groupings, right? By, by color or appearance. and so I remember it was third grade. Someone asked me, are you black or white? And I had never thought about it before. And so I gave it a thought and I said, I think I'm gray.

Lynn: 4:16

Love that, somewhere in the middle.

'Tine: 4:18

yeah, I'd learned in art class, right? You mix black and white and you get gray. But I think it was, it was eighth grade where I first had a very close friend who was also biracial. And, that was the first time I got to really talk to someone about, what that experience had been like. And, we became close. We're still friends now. yeah, it was, it was an interesting experience to sort of develop amongst, a diverse group. group of people because at first it just didn't matter for probably a long time. obviously it, it started to matter. but, the other thing I wanted to mention is that, as a black kid growing up with, a white parent and with an immigrant parent, I didn't necessarily relate culturally with other African American kids. I mostly, for me, it was other children of immigrants where we had that instant connection, Oh, I couldn't get away with that at home or whatever, where you didn't have to explain anything. and it wasn't really until my adulthood that I, I started, really identifying more with black Americans and with black culture. so I think growing up, it was more, I am my own individual self and then it was other children of immigrants that I was like, oh, you get me.

Lynn: 5:27

Mm. I love that. It sounds like as a kid, and I think children do this automatically, is you were, you were pulling in all these identities together and making sense of them in, on your own. But then thinking about them happened as you got older and older and older and, and, and started interacting more with the world and with the systems that exist in the

'Tine: 5:51

and it's, it's so funny to watch kids develop, sort of a worldview. Based on their limited experience, my niece, when she was very young, so her dad, my brother, is biracial and her mom is white. And then she was looking at her grandparents, right, black grandpa, white grandma, and she said, Boys are black and girls are white.

Lynn: 6:13

Mm.

'Tine: 6:14

but she looked at her brother and she said, Oh, but he and I are both white. And so she thought about it. And then she said, Oh, mommies are white and daddies are black. So when my brother has kids, he'll be black too. Like she just, she had a very limited sample size and she, was trying to work with what she could see. Yeah.

Lynn: 6:33

and that's what we do, right? And I think even as an adult, and that's where this podcast came from, is even as an adult, I was trying to make sense of what I could see in the world. And then the more I exposed myself to, other things, oh, people can run their own business. I never even, conceived of that idea. So it's, interesting, our brains

'Tine: 6:55

Mm hmm.

Lynn: 6:56

are constantly taking in the information of what's around us. And if what's around us is only a certain thing, which it always will be. it's not going to grow in that understanding until we expand that environment.

'Tine: 7:09

Yeah. And that's, that's why they say, you can't be it if you can't see it, right? If you don't know that that's a possibility, how do you know to pursue it?

Lynn: 7:17

Yeah, I love that. Okay, look at us getting all meta already. okay, so let's fast forward. so you grew up in a very diverse, Suburb of Chicago, biracial and daughter of an immigrant and a white mother. let's fast forward to now. Where and how are you currently spending your days,'Tine?

'Tine: 7:40

So I am back in Oak Park. I wanted my kids to know other biracial children. my husband is white and, so yeah, we're, we're back. But, in terms of my day to day, I am running my business, Getting Black Women Paid. And that's, that's what I do. I help Black women accelerate their careers and increase their income and pursue financial freedom.

Lynn: 8:07

Awesome. I love that. So important. And I'm, I'm excited to hear like, How'd you get there? Because it probably didn't just happen overnight, like you graduated from college and then boom,

'Tine: 8:19

Oh my goodness. So many twists and turns. Absolutely.

Lynn: 8:22

Yeah, okay, so I'm curious before we start to talk about those many twists and turns. most of us grow up with Some sort of, external pressures or expectations that were placed on us. and I'm curious if you'd be able to talk about those for you. what expectations do you feel like you grew up with? Well,

'Tine: 8:48

Nigerian father, his grandparents were illiterate. His parents were educators. And then he and all of his siblings had professional degrees. So it was, you will do better than I did, in terms of, each generation. I remember I was in second grade and I got a C on a spelling test and my dad sat me down and he said, everyone in this family goes to college. And I thought that colleges were going to be looking at my second grade spelling test.

Lynn: 9:15

of course. Of course. They go back. Yeah.

'Tine: 9:18

so I learned how to spell and I never got a C on a spelling test again. for me, definitely the expectation was I'm going to be going to college and, using that degree in some way.

Lynn: 9:29

can I ask a question about that? as you grew older, did you have any concept of how your father defined better, each generation does what needs to do better than the last? So did he have a definition of that? Was it solely education? Was it financial? Was it status in life? Mm

'Tine: 9:48

interesting. I mean, I think when I was younger, I wasn't sure what that would look like, right? Because if they all got professional degrees now, it's okay, so I got to be, what, a doctor? Or what do I have to do? but, Now I know my dad is so proud of my brother and me for having an impact on society. Right? so my dad is an architect, in addition to having his business, he is a public servant. he is, served on school board. he was the president of the school board. He, is a village trustee. He, He's a Rotarian, so the, the Rotary Club who do all kinds of charity work and work on, eradicating polio. He was the governor of his district for Rotary, so he is, constantly giving back to the community. And for me, what I see from him now is that, He's proud that we are having a positive impact that, he wants us to have a legacy. My brother is an educator as well, and we'll talk about this, but I was briefly a teacher. but I know he's, he's so proud of the work I'm doing with Getting Black Women Paid. he was the first person to buy my book. And, my mom was the first person to read it cover to cover. So my, folks are, endlessly supportive. But, to me it seems like the thing that makes them most proud is, one, our children, right? They love being grandparents. And, two, that we are happy and helping others.

Lynn: 11:12

I love that. I love that. Did your second grade brain have any sense of that? Or was your second grade brain like,

'Tine: 11:20

no.

Lynn: 11:20

gosh, I just need to be a better speller

'Tine: 11:22

No, I was like, oh, yeah, I better not bring home a C again. I even remember eighth grade, we had to do a, a constitution test and for some reason the scale was something weird. It was like out of 110 and I think I got 108 and I was so proud and I came home and I said, Dad, I got 108 and he said, what happened to those other two points? And I was just

Lynn: 11:44

yeah.

'Tine: 11:45

crushed, but, And as I'm looking back at that, that is such a distant memory because now, he has seen me through, I'll say, quote unquote, failures. and, I know that, long as I'm doing my best, he's proud.

Lynn: 12:00

I love that for you. That's, that's a really special, belief to grow up with that that your parents are going to be proud of you as long as you're doing your best and having that impact.

'Tine: 12:12

Yeah.

Lynn: 12:12

Any other expectations that you felt like you grew up with?

'Tine: 12:15

gosh, I mean, I think the main thing was college. I remember in high school, I was, oh, well, here's one. in eighth grade. They had an assembly for us to get ready for high school and they told us, every honors class is going to be an hour of homework every night and, you shouldn't take more than one or two honors classes. And so I came home and I said, Oh, I'm not going to take more than one or two honors classes because they said X, Y, Z. And my mom was like, you're taking all honors courses. What are you talking about? Right? Like they. She had to explain to me that like the advice they were giving generally for everyone did not apply to me. and I think that they were, trying to help me understand. I was a smart kid, and I could do the work. Also, I think they were annoyed that black kids were getting this advice, right? That black kids were getting the advice not to take more than one or two honors courses because, I did find in high school I was one of the only black kids in my class. and then even towards the end of high school, I was advocating for them to stop giving that messaging to black kids.

Lynn: 13:20

Wow. As a high schooler, you were making that, that like plea already.

'Tine: 13:26

Yeah. Yeah. I was in a group called the, I think it was Minority Student Achievement Network, and they kept referring to us as overachieving. And I was like, no, we're achieving, it's just maybe we're overachieving your expectations. But, the purpose of that group was to help, eliminate the achievement gap. And, unfortunately, I ended up back at the high school years later and they were still doing research on the achievement gap. And I'm like, we were doing research when I went here. Let's, let's take some action. you can still walk into a classroom and tell by the color. What level the class is, which is really frustrating.

Lynn: 14:01

absolutely. And 2024 is still, still very much a reality. And I spent several years of my career like working on that in educational systems. And, gosh, why does change take so long

'Tine: 14:15

Yes.

Lynn: 14:15

okay, so you grew up with those expectations of you're going to go to college, but you're also going to be really, like high achieving, and you're going to reach your potential, it sounds like, which is, Really powerful messaging to have from your, from your parents. so let's talk about those twists and turns. How did you start like laying out your path, or what was the path you laid out for yourself, and what's the first way you redrew it?

'Tine: 14:42

So in high school, I decided I was going to be a high school math teacher. I was tutoring classmates and I had a math teacher that I really didn't like. And I was, you know, no one should have a math teacher like this. I'm going to do so much better. and so I went to college as a math major and, calculus kicked my butt.

Lynn: 15:03

Calculus one, two, or three, or all of

'Tine: 15:06

I don't even remember. I don't even remember. Whichever one I was in, I think it was two. I think I tested into two. I, well, first of all, because it was a prerequisite for all the other math courses, I assumed that much like math had been my whole life, it was going to compound on itself, right? And so if I didn't get this, I wouldn't understand the next thing. And because I had done well in math my whole life, I didn't know how to study. I didn't know how to learn math if it didn't come immediately. so I decided I was bad at math and I ran crying to the humanities.

Lynn: 15:35

no. What, what a system that just allows you to kind of absorb that message. Oh, I must be bad at this thing that I've excelled at so much. Sorry, that's my soapbox.

'Tine: 15:48

I got you, so it was after one or two semesters of attempting Calculus that I, I changed majors. I majored in African and African American Studies and Psychology. I minored in Music. I was in a singing group. I ended up directing that group. even after college I was in the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra for a while, as a choral singer. so that was the first pivot was I'm just going to study what I like. And, Black Studies was just incredible for me. I think it was my senior year of high school was the first time I got to take African American Lit, and I just loved it. And so. That became my major. And then I graduated and was like, Oh, what the heck do I do with a degree in black studies and psychology?

Lynn: 16:34

Can I ask, what made you, drawn to psychology specifically? Was it just oh, you were enjoying those classes, those electives, and let's keep going down

'Tine: 16:44

I guess so. I think I also took psychology in high school. And I think that was another one of the courses that I found really interesting. And, I was still interested in education. And so it was a lot of like childhood development, and things like that. And so I was thinking that I would. now teach maybe elementary school because with those specific degrees, you can't do a specialization for secondary school. and then I was going to, become a professor, do research on race and education, right? Combining that psychology and black studies, and change the education system. That was my new, goal. My new plan. but it started with, working at the container store and at one point I had three jobs, and I was in three choirs

Lynn: 17:27

my gosh. Oh, was that while you were in college or after?

'Tine: 17:30

That was, that was the year after I graduated

Lynn: 17:33

Well, I, fun fact, I tried to get a job at the container store like seven years ago when I was living in Denver.

'Tine: 17:41

Oh, interesting. They give, they give health benefits no matter how few hours you work. So for me, like when I had the three jobs, one of them gave health insurance, one paid me enough to live. And then the other one was the only one I enjoyed, which was, I was a paid, like section leader and soloist in a church choir. And so I was like, well, I can't drop any of these, right? So that was, uh, the first, first year out of college was, Just getting by, using a credit card to eat.

Lynn: 18:09

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. The, the days and did you need your education license If you were working towards a job as an elementary teacher, or what were you going through at that time?

'Tine: 18:20

yeah, so the next transition was grad school. I moved back to Chicago for that. I went to DePaul for, education. And again, I was I was thinking I was going to do elementary. but my first classroom observation placement was in a middle school math class. And I remembered all the reasons I wanted to teach math. Calculus and I had a rematch. ended up, doing, full time grad school for education at night and full time undergrad math during the day so that I could, and my folks let me live with them during that time, which is what made that possible. and so I ended up getting certified as a high school math teacher through that.

Lynn: 18:57

hmm. Wow. So your dreams were coming true, right? I mean, that initial dream of being a math teacher and being able to impact individual students lives and teach something that, that you, I'm assuming you still enjoyed math at that time. Mm hmm.

'Tine: 19:12

yeah, yeah. Oh, math has not been the problem. So it was student teaching, the very end of that very expensive program. Student teaching was when I finally realized, oh my gosh, I don't want to do this. I, oh, student teaching was so hard. I was so stressed. But they were also, some things that just didn't make sense. I had a student who was pregnant with twins, and she was failing geometry. And I'm like, should I be helping her learn about congruent triangles? Or should I be teaching her how to, double a recipe and balance her bank account? Right? Like, there's math she needs, and this is not it. Right. So that was one of the things. And also just, I have an over empathy problem. I internalize the stress of others, and even project stress on others, right? Like I, I knew that these kids were like failing a test that I was giving. And so I was stressing and I'm like, some of them do not care. They're not stressing, but I'm taking on that stress for them. So I was, I was in physical pain. I remember spring break, I finally healed. I wasn't feeling shoulder pain, back pain, neck pain, all that stuff. And then on the first day back, it was. back immediately.

Lynn: 20:14

Were you making sense of that at the time? connecting that physical pain to the stress you were going through? Okay, you

'Tine: 20:22

Yeah. No, yeah, I know it was, it was horrible. so yeah, so I finished, my degree and I was like, I don't, I don't know what to do. So I, I mean, I got a teaching job. I was a full time math teacher with my own classroom for six school days.

Lynn: 20:35

what were the thoughts going through your head as you were coming to the end of your student teaching realizing like maybe this isn't my path. And then in those six school days, what were you thinking about yourself? What were you thinking about your path?

'Tine: 20:50

Yeah, I mean, my mental health was, was suffering, right? Like I, I lost seven pounds in those first five days that first week. I can teach a math concept in 10 different ways, but I only know one way to say don't talk when other people are talking. other than like inserting cuss words, right? I just did not have control over the classroom. And, so I had a long weekend. It was Labor Day weekend. I like, redid my classroom setup for, optimal whatever the heck. And then, I came in and I had a panic attack and threw up twice before first period and I was like, I'm out. That's it. Right? Like that's, that's it. I remember, on the way to school I would think Hmm, if I drove into this median, I could go to the hospital instead of school. So that's when you know, you're not supposed to be where you're trying to be. Right? Like that's, that's it. That's not it. And, this is kind of coming back to my dad, he was there helping me set up my classroom. I was working at the school for a month over the summer, setting up everything in the classroom, everything. He was there helping me, hang things up or whatever. And then that day, when I finished, he came, he came to help me take everything down.

Lynn: 21:56

Oh,

'Tine: 21:57

Ooh, I'm getting teary.

Lynn: 21:59

Yeah, well, and it sounds like, I mean, you had worked so hard towards this plan and this dream and take your time.

'Tine: 22:10

Ooh, I was not expecting that.

Lynn: 22:12

Yeah, well, I'm, I'm grateful for your dad. You're gonna make me teary. You're gonna make me teary. but it sounds like you had worked so hard at this thing and then, you had to make that really sounds like somewhat hard decision, but easy decision if if you're struggling that much, were you fearful at that time of well, what happens if I walk out of this classroom?

'Tine: 22:38

Yeah, I mean I had$60,000 of student debt. I was, living with my folks. I didn't know. I was still paying off that credit card. I was paying interest on a burger I ate in 2007. I had no plan. and this was, I guess, the second time that, my plan had kind of come to an end. oh yeah, that was a hard time. the, the teariness is, is about, the support though. while I figured it out, I was doing like tutoring. I ended up serving as a long term sub at my old high school. So when I said I went back to my high school, there were five math teachers having babies that year. So I just did all of the maternity and paternity leaves. and one of them also taught AP computer science. And so it was basically like intro to Java and I was staying a chapter ahead of the kids and I thought, Oh, I kind of like this coding thing. one of the things that surprised me was, 30 kids could all have a different answer to the same question and all be right. it wasn't like math where it's okay, did everyone get 27? I didn't realize there was creativity in programming. So I did a boot camp, and got my first job as a software engineer in 2015. So that was the next pivot. and, this is now where my mom comes in. My dad was the one who pointed this out. So I'm a third generation woman programmer. My, yes, my mom is an IT architect. Her mom was a programmer. she was, divorced back in a time where that was really uncommon and she had to figure out, how to raise five kids and she became a programmer. so it was sort of a, a coming home, I think, in terms of that next, uh, turn on the path.

Lynn: 24:23

Had you been exposed to that potential path, as a kid growing up?

'Tine: 24:28

It's so funny. Not really. we didn't really do coding at school. I think I had to take keyboarding, right? So I learned to type at

Lynn: 24:34

Mm hmm. Did you do Mavis Beacon teaches typing?

'Tine: 24:38

I don't remember. No, I remember we had something at home that had a little ghost that would, haunt things as you typed. so yeah, I learned to type, but I mostly used that for, I M ing my brother while he was at college. I didn't really, and like writing papers, right? I didn't, it didn't occur to me that, that coding could be a path for me. and my, my mom, she never pushed that on me. I think she, she still thinks that I'm good at so many things, right? Like she's very good at what she does. And she's, very analytical, very logical. And I have some of those traits, and I'm also a creative, and so I think she didn't want to kind of push me in any particular direction. yeah, I came home.

Lynn: 25:23

Which is interesting because that's like another way to support your child, right? Is to give them the space to figure it out on their own and, not push, Hey, by the way, I'm the second generation programmer and I really am looking for a third generation. So that's going to be you.

'Tine: 25:45

And I love a good pattern, so I'm trying really hard not to push my daughter.

Lynn: 25:49

Good for you. exposure is great. And Not forcing, and I know as not a parent myself, but as, someone who's researched child development quite a bit, gosh, it's hard to find that balance,

'Tine: 26:02

yeah, yeah. But even without pushing, my daughter currently has a, a piece of construction paper folded in half. And when you open it up, it looks like a little laptop, like she drew in a computer.

Lynn: 26:13

Love

'Tine: 26:14

she'll, she'll sit with me and do her work while I'm working,

Lynn: 26:16

Mm hmm. I love that. I love that. She'll be learning Java. I don't know if Java's still used.

'Tine: 26:23

it is, but If I were to push something on her, it probably wouldn't be Java,

Lynn: 26:26

Okay. I, I'm like so far removed. Anyways. Okay. So math teacher, right? Like then you are welcomed back to this, to your high school. And that's where you had the freedom to explore and dabble and then deciding like, Oh, I really like this thing. I'm going to do a software programming bootcamp. and then I think that was, Tell me, tell me your next turn, or you, you then started that career in programming, right?

'Tine: 26:59

Yeah. one of my biggest things when I started, was that I did not want to find out that a white guy sitting next to me with the same experience was getting paid more than I was. So, from the beginning, my bootcamp, they, they gave a sort of here's the average someone in Chicago who graduates from our program is getting on their first role. And so I was like, I'm hitting that at least. Right. And so, even for my very first role, I negotiated, which, was a challenge because as a career changer, I thought, okay, well, I'm, I'm brand new to this. I'm, what leverage do I have? but even in that first interview, I told the hiring manager, I'm a developer who can speak human, right? Like I can break down technical concepts into understandable, smaller parts, whether for people who either have a technical background or not. and so that's how I realized I could leverage being a career changer, right? the guys who were, building computers since high school and then went and got a computer science degree and then went straight into this. didn't know how to put together an agenda and run a meeting, right? And so, it was, it was leveraging that, that career changer, skill set and, and negotiating salaries. So in my first, let's see, I, I doubled my teaching salary in two years as a software engineer, and then I tripled my teaching salary in less than five years. so that was, a huge deal for me. And, alongside of things, I was building my family. my now husband, at the time that I was in bootcamp, we were moving in together. and he had saved up a year's salary to quit his job. He did not like his job. And by the time he was kind of running out of that money, I was pregnant, we were married, I was pregnant, and I was making more than both of us were making before I made this career change. and so he became a full time dad,

Lynn: 28:51

Wow.

'Tine: 28:52

amazing. so yeah, just being able to, build out that career and, build our family at the same time was a huge deal. And, I think the teaching bug kind of crept up on me and I started speaking, first about career changers and imposter syndrome. and then more about imposter syndrome, especially for black women in tech. well for women in tech and for black folks in tech. and then I was also informally mentoring other black women, helping them get into tech, helping them negotiate their salaries. and at some point I did kind of hit a ceiling in terms of software engineering. initially I enjoyed it, but now it's, It's not my, my passion. Right. And so I was talking with a career coach and she said, well, what gets you excited? What do you love? And I said, Getting Black Women Paid. And she said, go get on GoDaddy, look up gettingblackwomenpaid. com and buy it. Right. that is, uh, that's how Getting Black Women Paid was born. and so now the, the new pivot has been, really leaning into, Helping other black women do what I did and, really build that financial future that they're looking for.

Lynn: 30:02

That, that's so powerful. you said, correct me,'Tine, if I get this wrong, you said within five years, you had tripled your salary that you were making in education, right?

'Tine: 30:12

That's right. So that's a, one, a testament to the negotiation stuff, but also how poorly we pay educators in this society.

Lynn: 30:21

was going to point that out too, and that was, yes. were you in that time, were you like actively working on promotions, negotiations, that entire time? Or was a lot of it like kind of that, I don't want to say natural, but like that, like everybody this year is getting? I worked in the nonprofit, so 3 percent

'Tine: 30:44

Right.

Lynn: 30:45

was like the most you would

'Tine: 30:46

Yeah, I was definitely not going to triple my salary on those three percent increases. no, so it's interesting. I actually didn't get promoted a lot. I mostly left companies because of racism and sexism. And on my way out, I negotiated a new salary at the next place. I actually wrote an article about this. I called it the experience tax. I was, about five years into my career as a software engineer. I was having like a virtual coffee with a teammate who I had known for six months. And he said, Oh, is this your first dev role? And I was like, no, I've been doing this for five years. And, after some rage and imposter syndrome and all the things, I thought about it and I realized, well, Like my cohort mates from my boot camp, some of them are at the same company that they started at. I was at my fourth company in five years. And so each time I had, to learn a new code base, learn a new, company culture. experience the new flavors of microaggressions, decide if they reached the level of, I got to get out of here, then start a new job search. And it's like, yeah, during this time, I have not been honing my technical skills for five years worth of engineering. And so I think about that, the experience tax, right, as the like extra time and energy that black women have to put into their work because of the other Nonsense, my first, my first engineering role, I left because the head of HR licked my face at the holiday party.

Lynn: 32:12

Wait, wait, wait, wait. What?

'Tine: 32:15

That is the correct response to that. and

Lynn: 32:19

It wasn't like a, you were, it wasn't like you volunteered to do like a body shot, like a tequila, like a salt. Oh my gosh.

'Tine: 32:28

so I was talking to someone about it and I used the word unacceptable and I was like, oh shoot, that means I have to not accept it. and so that was the first time I had to look for a new job. and I got a big salary bump. Another co worker followed me there, got the same salary bump, and both of us on our the engineering department, what we were going to be making at our new roles. And after the second one of us left, they actually gave, my other colleagues a raise. and in general, I'm always working towards that, pay equity and trying to lift everyone else up. another example, I, I'm going to use the numbers because I think so many of us don't say the numbers and then we don't know what to expect. So I was in a role where I was making about 100, 000 and again, the company was not a fit. I really needed to get out of there. so I was hoping to get 120, 000 in my next role, but it was a parallel move. Same title. and the offer I got was 140.

Lynn: 33:23

Wow.

'Tine: 33:24

And so obviously I wanted to be like, yes, please. Thank you. but I said what I always say, which is, thanks so much for the offer. I'd love to get, the benefits in writing and look it over and get back to you. and oh, later that day, I saw, I think it was a tweet. This was back when Twitter was Twitter. and it said, black women, Whatever you were going to ask for, ask for more. And I was like, shoot, I got to negotiate, right? So I thought about, okay, so I'm leaving mid year. what are all, what's all the money I'm leaving on the table, right? I'm not going to get my 401k match. I'm not going to get my annual bonus. I need to meet a new deductible, right? I already met my deductible. I'm going to have to start that over. So I tried to calculate, right, what's all the money I'm leaving on the table by leaving a job midway through the year. and so I brought that back to this company, I asked for another 15k and I got 8. I started at 148 but I thought about it and it's if I said yes please thank you to that 140, and then they offered 142 a white guy and he negotiated. Right now he's coming in at 148. Then forever, right? Your annual increase is a percentage of what you're making, right? And so that gap never closes. And the thing is when I got there and I started talking with the other women engineers, I found out that they were making Gosh, 25, 000 less than I was. And so when it came time for annual reviews, they were able to say, Hey, I know people are making 148, 000. And then they got brought up to that too. So again, it's all about bringing everyone else up as you go as

Lynn: 34:52

Yeah, I love that. I think that's why when we first connected last year, I think that's why your energy and your mission and life really resonated with me because it's not about creating hmm. a different form of inequality, right? It's like, how do you really support everybody in being able to make a decent living and also earn, I don't want to say earn what they're worth, because shouldn't we all, shouldn't we all have a right to have that decent living and have access to healthcare? but I think it was, Nikole Hannah Jones, the formerly New York Times writer that wrote, make sure you're bringing people with you. after you've made that step up, turn around and give a woman or give someone behind you a hand, and help them make that step up. And I think that that's great. Really important. And you increased your salary by 48 percent just in one move. And I think I've been doing a lot of thinking about okay, how do I support others and redrawing their path when they really are feeling like that need or they're having a panic attack and throwing up twice before work? like, how do I support that? And I think one of the biggest things, as you mentioned, moving from company to company to company, there is that experience tax, but it's also you're building that skill of tolerating the uncomfortable and you're building that skill of Navigating different cultures that oftentimes, like, when we're comfortable, even if we know we want to make a change, it's harder to think about, going into a new lunchroom and having to find new co workers to, it's harder to, think through how to hold that discomfort for yourself. So I appreciate you saying that, Yeah, you were able to do that because you were willing to tolerate a lot of discomfort and a lot of microaggressions and a lot of It's really obnoxious cultural things, but that ability to take risks was really important.

'Tine: 36:53

Yeah. Well, and I think I also developed a, how do I want to put this? I, I developed some confidence in being a black woman engineer in terms of, bringing up the issues that come up. Because to me, I'm like, oh, are you going to fire the only black woman engineer at your company because she told you about some racism? that's not a good look for you. Right. And so to me, coming into those negotiations and things, I felt a lot of leverage because, if I'm going to be over represented on your website because you want to have a black face there, then you're going to also need to pay me for my labor, right? For the diversity work I'm doing and, all of those things. I did end up at a company that actually gave a stipend to the heads of employee resource groups, right, which is, actually putting your money where your mouth is if you're saying you're valuing diversity, equity and inclusion. it is kind of building that muscle of, what I have found something better in the past. I can do that again.

Lynn: 37:53

Can I ask when, because you said, one of the ways you started kind of redrawing that path and, and what led to Getting Black Women Paid, Right now is you started to speak on, imposter syndrome and you started to speak on negotiations and all of the career development things. When you started doing that, were you just thinking yeah, sure. Like I like speaking. I'll do this for free and for fun. And were you thinking oh, this could potentially be a real legit path for me.

'Tine: 38:24

Oh, I was definitely doing it for free and for fun. and then eventually, I started traveling for speaking and, I'd have my company cover the cost of my travel, but it was still free. so it's actually beginning of 2022 when I, I started an LLC because I said, I need to get paid for this. and so originally it was just speaking. And so it was, it was further into that year that, I realized the, the Getting Black Women Paid thing and I changed it to a, doing business as Getting Black Women Paid. so yeah, it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I started, actually doing paid speaking, and realizing, oh, that could be a career or that could be a source of income. yeah, so originally it was for fun. And then at some point it was. pay me, pay me for my work, right? I don't speak for free, in Black History Month. I don't speak for free in Women's History Month. if you want to invite people to speak on those things, you need to pay those people. And now in general, I don't speak for free unless I can also promote my book or, do some other promotion for the business or things like that.

Lynn: 39:28

love that. I love that. And it sounds like, just thinking about timeline. When did you buy the website or when did you buy the URL?

'Tine: 39:35

I think that was August 2022.

Lynn: 39:38

Okay, so it's like around the same time.

'Tine: 39:40

yeah, so it was January, January to August was, let me figure out the speaking thing.

Lynn: 39:44

okay, cool. But you got really clear on what your mission is going to be in life and you've been building that path. have you had doubts along the way or any sort of reframing you've had to do for yourself along the way as you've transitioned from like software engineer to author speaker?

'Tine: 40:05

Girl, I literally wrote the book on imposter syndrome. so my book, Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work, The Black Woman's Guide to Conquer Perfectionism, Stop Overthinking and Thrive in Your Career, I published that book in November 2023. And while writing the book, I would literally have to go back and read previous chapters to be like, Oh, yeah, okay, let me keep going. that, that self doubt is always, a thing you need to, to address and challenge. this is, I, I definitely spent years thinking that I am not a business person. I'm not a person who can do sales. I, had to make adjustments to my mindset, to my self perception, to envision, what does this look like? I grew up, pursuing academia. I grew up with, I'm going to, I need to study this, this, and this, and I'm going to get my A, right? Someone's going to tell me you need to do X, Y, and Z. And then they're going to tell me, good job. You did it. Being an entrepreneur, I'm making it up. I got to make it up as I go. And the things I'm studying, I need to implement to see if they work, but it's not, there's no clear guide. it used to be, study this thing, get the grade, move on to the next thing, get into the good college, get the, whatever it was. it really, it wasn't until my, my coding bootcamp that I learned how to learn for myself and not for the grade. Right. So we didn't get grades. It was, I mean, you still have to pass to get to the next, section of the program, but it was, what are you going to need to know to, to feel like you can be an effective developer? And I was like, Oh, so I'm just learning for me then? that's,

Lynn: 41:47

Like, what? Why? Mm hmm.

'Tine: 41:51

So in terms of entrepreneurship, it's more of that. yeah. I'm making it up as I go and, and dealing with the self doubt along the way.

Lynn: 41:59

Yeah. So even after you write the book, it is still, it still comes up in terms of wow, can I do this? Yes. And, but it sounds like you've, you've built a lot more tools along the way

'Tine: 42:12

Sure. And, and, a skill in recognizing those thoughts when they come up, right? it used to be kind of before I wrote the book, I'd be saying something about work or, Oh, I don't know if I can do this. And my husband would say, you know, there's this really good talk you should listen to, you know, and I'm like, shut up. And so now it's, oh, there's this really good book you should read, but, the point is not to, you conquer imposter syndrome and you're done. It's right. You develop the skills, you, you build up that toolkit and you recognize those thoughts sooner and interrupt them.

Lynn: 42:43

Not that they won't come up at all or that you can squash them right away.

'Tine: 42:48

The further you go, the, The more likely you are to be somewhere you've never been before, right? And then it's, do I deserve to be here? Absolutely. So yeah, it's always going to come up.

Lynn: 42:58

I love that. Thank you for diving into that a little bit too. And I'm and I'm really glad you mentioned your book. I have your book and really powerful message too. I think for for anyone, whether you're a black woman or white woman or however you identify. I think it is really, really powerful. And I think the more I've talked to people, I think there are, folks that somehow don't let that self doubt creep in. But, You know, I'm not one of them.

'Tine: 43:25

Well, do they or do you just not see it? a lot of us look confident, but are still having those feelings. And then there are, of course, The narcissists who are undeservedly confident, right? But you got to think about, there are a lot of people who have an unearned sense of confidence who are just like failing up in their careers. And, so many of us are You know, especially women are, trying to make sure we check all the boxes and, we got to make sure we're overqualified for the thing before we apply for it. and so it is that, how do you gain the confidence of a mediocre white man, right, to, to go for the thing? and I try to think about, a job description as, if I meet every single one of these things, then I'm overqualified for that job. Instead, it's what do I want to be doing, right? in this job description, is that something I want to be growing into?

Lynn: 44:16

Which is a really powerful question to be asking yourself and realizing that you have some agency too and you have some control and you have the ability to say what you want for yourself and make it happen, not just take whatever job that comes along where you do check all the boxes. Mm

'Tine: 44:37

And expanding your mind about what's possible. as you were saying at the beginning, if you don't see something, you don't know what's possible. With me, I was looking at teaching salaries thinking, okay, once that, now that I have You know, my master's, if I do this for another year, I'm going to get another this many thousand dollars or whatever. It had not occurred to me that I could be in a negotiation where I'm asking, Oh, 140 sounds nice, but could we do 155? Right. That was just like not in the realm of possibilities. But, some of the women I've worked with have doubled their salary in one go, just expanding the idea of, What's possible and what you deserve, I know a lot of, I see a lot of empowering language where that where people say, know your worth. And I, I cringe at that because it's such a it's so based in capitalism, right? That your worth as a human is some number, right? You, you're invaluable. There's no number too high. Right? There's no amount of money that someone could own you, right? And that's especially a visceral concept to black folks, right? There's no amount of money where someone could own you. So no number is too high. You're invaluable. And that just takes that mindset to a different level of what, what you can ask for in terms of, you're selling your labor for this amount.

Lynn: 45:52

Yeah, I love that message, too. And I, I agree. I think, and I've been trying to reprogram my mind from, the capitalism, know your

'Tine: 46:00

hmm.

Lynn: 46:00

worth. even yesterday I was writing an email and I said, enjoy your vacation. It's very well deserved. And I'm like, no, everybody deserves rest.

'Tine: 46:07

Right. You didn't earn it. You, you are already worthy of it. Yeah. That's the shift I like to do is when I hear that know your worth, I try to shift it to know you're worthy, right? So you're worthy of rest. You're worthy of, vacation time. You're worthy of a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, right? There's no number that's too high.

Lynn: 46:28

Yeah, I love that.'Tine, any other advice you would give? Because this advice is like so invaluable already. any other advice you would give to others who are considering redrawing their paths? Mm hmm.

'Tine: 46:45

yes. I mean, so my first path redraw was when I was 18. Actually, incidentally, my first salary negotiation was when I was 18 as well. I think my advice would be. to open as many doors as possible, right? That knowing that your next thing isn't the last thing, so it doesn't have to be the perfect choice, right? I've made so many pivots, none of them ended up being the thing that I did for the rest of my life, yet, right? We'll see if this one is, but that, because it can be paralyzing to, to have too many choices and not know what's the right one. So, I think my biggest advice is you just need a good enough next thing because that next thing will help open up more paths, right? And so it's, it's just, you are increasing your experience and knowledge of what you enjoy and what you don't, right? Every experience is a learning experience, even if it's a bad, if your next move was a bad move, okay, you learned a lot. Now what's the next move? And so just not being afraid to take a step and knowing that your next thing doesn't have to be the thing.

Lynn: 47:51

And that the next thing won't necessarily be your forever thing and what you have to picture doing till

'Tine: 47:58

right. and and even if the next thing is great, it still could open doors to other things, right? So it's, it's just, it's not about, I need to make a decision for the rest of my life. It's I need to make a decision for next year or next month, and then we'll see from there.

Lynn: 48:14

I love that. And it, I think that's so helpful for people like me who tend to think well, then I'm going to be a social worker for the rest of my life, or then I'm going to be, doing this work for the rest of my life and to realize that, oh, you can, you can take a job and decide six days in that it is not the right fit.

'Tine: 48:35

Yeah. That's actually not the shortest job I've had.

Lynn: 48:39

what was the shortest job you've had?

'Tine: 48:42

I was trying to figure out, before teaching elementary, I was trying to figure out if I wanted to work with preschoolers. And I took a job as a teaching assistant at a Montessori school, and I was there for three days. And I learned a great

Lynn: 48:55

Yes. See, you need to teach me because I, I'm like, Oh, I'm not enjoying this. Maybe if I just keep trying harder and then before you know it, I'm like, Somewhere for X number. I mean, let's be real. I'm a geriatric millennial. I haven't been in any job longer. I mean, I think the longest job I've had, was my high school department store job at Younker's for, for other Midwesterners. so you already, are teaching something, in the, hey, if this isn't for you, like, rip the bandaid off,

'Tine: 49:29

right, right. And you can decide how you want to do it. You don't have to burn bridges along the way. In fact, that job, they hadn't gotten a chance to contact all of my references yet before I started. So actually, by the time, they were talking to one of my references, I had already left. And apparently they still talked for like a half hour about how great I am. So there are ways to, to leave a place well.

Lynn: 49:49

Absolutely, absolutely. I think that's a good lesson, too. okay,'Tine, I know we're coming up on time, but I feel like I could keep asking you questions about your story for another hour. But we'll save listeners, or maybe someday we'll do a part two. but where can people find you, and is there anything you would want to share with listeners? Thank you, guys.

'Tine: 50:10

Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me at tinezekis.com that's where you'll find the book, if you want to book me to speak, all of those things. And, I think my most exciting project, I'm launching the Salary You Deserve Accelerator. And so that is for Black women who want to accelerate their careers, whether that is a pivot or, a promotion, you know, dramatically increase their income. And start to work towards that financial freedom.

Lynn: 50:39

Cool. Cool. Is that on TeamZekas. com also? Awesome. I love that. thank you so much. I'm going to include all of those links in the show notes for folks and I just want to express how grateful I am for you to share your story with me and with listeners and, and just your, mentorship and kind of friendship over the last year since, since we first connected. I've, I've just really enjoyed it and appreciated it.

'Tine: 51:06

me too. And I actually just remembered one because it hasn't started yet, but probably by the time this airs, I will also have a podcast. the Getting Black Women Paid podcast. wherever you're listening to this, you should be able to search for that as well. But, Lynn, I agree. I think You know, we've had just such a, a wonderful time getting to know each other and, and I'm so glad I got to, to come share my story.

Lynn: 51:27

well, I appreciate you and I'm excited to share your story.

'Tine: 51:31

Uh, thanks for having me.

Lynn: 51:34

Thanks for listening to Redraw Your Path with me, Lynn Debilzen. If you like the episode, please rate and review. That helps more listeners find me. And don't be shy, reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn and sign up for my e-newsletter at redrawyourpath.com. I can't wait to share more inspiring stories with you. See you next week.