Start Being Curious, and Not Judgmental | Ep. 020 - Deborah Lukovich

Join host Lynn Debilzen in this enlightening interview with Deborah Lukovich on Redraw Your Path!

In this interview, Lynn learns about Deb’s journey through midlife unraveling, being a business owner and nonprofit founder, practicing as a depth psychologist, and more. Their conversation touches on:

• How increased self-awareness and listening to your Soul allows space for wondering, curiosity, and non-judgment of yourself and others
• How you can make a difference in the world just being yourself - and how to get in touch with who you are at your core
• How diving deep into your subconscious can help you learn how your unconscious self shapes your behaviors and how it can lead to profound life changes

Tune in for a dynamic discussion on life and growth!

About Deborah:

Deborah Lukovich, PhD is a depth psychologist, author, podcaster, and blogger. Her expertise is the study of the unconscious. After navigating her own midlife unraveling and reconstruction, which paralleled an irrational desire to study depth psychology, she unleashed creatively, and now Deborah is on a mission to grow a movement of self-reflecting humans. She empowers people with a framework for self-reflection focused on learning the language of the unconscious, which is how the Soul reveals clues about our deepest desires.

Dr. Deborah describes herself as an accidentally funny, awkward depth psychology nerd who is addicted to finding meaning in ordinary life events, and over-shares to encourage others to explore the deeper meaning of their lives.

Deborah’s last book Your Soul is Talking. Are You Listening? 5 Steps to Uncovering Your Hidden Purpose, combines her Jungian—based coaching framework for self-reflection with personal stories of midlife unraveling and healing wounds related to sexuality and spirituality.

Now, Deborah is publishing another more personal story. Her memoir, When Sex Meets God: a midlife story, is the juicy version of the dramatic story of her unexpected midlife unraveling and reconstruction, the version that wasn’t needed nor appropriate in the dissertation that led to her securing a PhD in depth psychology.

Dr. Deborah gathered her Top 5 Resources for Relief & Liberation for people who feel disconnected, empty, even lonely despite their success. Her guided meditation for getting immediate relief from anxiety and user-friendly tools for gaining clarity by exploring dreams are unique. Get her guide and more here.

Connect with Deborah:
Website: https://www.deborahlukovich.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-lukovich-phd-5322953/
Find her on other socials: https://twitter.com/DebLukovich, https://www.instagram.com/dlukovich/, https://www.facebook.com/dlukovich

Resources mentioned:

• Playworks - support play!

Connect with Lynn:

• www.redrawyourpath.com
• www.lynndebilzen.com
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynndebilzen/

Transcript

Lynn: 0:00

Hey friends, I'm Lynn Debilzen and welcome to Redraw Your Path, a podcast where I share stories of people who have made big changes in their lives and forged their own unique paths. I talk with guests about their moments of messiness, fear, and reframing on their way to where they are now. My goal is to inspire you about the shape your life could take. So let's get inspired. So excited, to drop another episode for you today. This is going to be a great one. My interview with Deborah Lukovich, was just, we really got in there, and we got into some of the unconscious and subconscious that controls our behaviors, and I'm really excited to share her expertise with you all. A little bit about Deb, Deborah Lukovich, PhD, is a depth psychologist, author, podcaster, and blogger. Her expertise is the study of the unconscious. After navigating her own midlife unraveling and reconstruction, which paralleled an irrational desire to study depth, psychology, She unleashed creatively, and now she is on a mission to grow a movement of self reflecting humans. She empowers people with a framework for self reflection, focused on learning the language of the unconscious, which is how the soul reveals clues about our deepest desires. She describes herself as an accidentally funny, awkward, depth psychologist nerd who is addicted to finding meaning in ordinary life events and overshares to encourage others to explore the deeper meaning of their lives. Deb and I have been connected for several years, and in our interview, we talk a little bit about Playworks, which is a national nonprofit, that I'm passionate about, and we both used to work for, really focusing on using the power of play to support children and their development. so we do mention some of that background, but I really hope you enjoy my conversation with Deb. She talks about her book, Your Soul is Talking, Are You Listening? Five Steps to Uncovering Your Hidden Purpose, and then an upcoming memoir that she is writing and coming out with soon. So enjoy the interview and let me know what you think. Thanks, Deb, for joining Redraw Your Path today. How are you?

Deborah: 2:30

I'm great. Thanks for having me, Lynn.

Lynn: 2:32

Thanks. I am so excited to hear more about your background and story, because you have been, in my life in some way or fashion for several years now. So I'm really excited to dive in. Where I like to start with all guests is to hear some context about where and how you grew up. Would you be open to sharing that?

Deborah: 2:57

Well, what I would say is I don't have a lot of memories of childhood. you know how some people have like, Oh, when I was three, I was baking cookies with grandma. I really don't. And it was during a course that was about looking at vocation through a depth psychology lens that when they asked, what are your earliest childhood memories? That mine were First was being afraid and remembering the apartment. So we started on the South side of Milwaukee and in a kind of like the area was changing economically in not a good way. And so one of my memories was I can picture my dad reading the green sheet, the comics, remember the green sheet?

Lynn: 3:38

Oh, I don't remember the green sheet, but I read the

Deborah: 3:41

maybe that was just in Milwaukee, but the green sheet, they call it. And I just felt afraid. And I could hear a siren outside the window. And then my other memory is, is being bullied at Allenfield school, which was a Playworks school. So we know each other through Playworks. So Pretty mercilessly, like hair pulling, being pushed up against a chain link fence, and then somebody came to my rescue because I was so shy and quiet, and, the quiet ones, the good ones, the introverted intuitives, suffer in silence because nobody really knows they're suffering, and the extroverts, they get in trouble for their bad behavior, right? But then, when I was asked about this memory, there was another memory. is why Playworks meant so much to me. The other memory was playing marbles on the corner of the playground around this big tree. I was good at it.

Lynn: 4:29

Oh.

Deborah: 4:29

And we traded tiger eyes and steelies and so I didn't realize at the time, but until I got hired at Playworks and really reflected about like how did Playworks and my old elementary school come into my life again, was that I felt safe there because we played by the rules. Right. And so what's Playworks about? Playworks is about building communities. So you know, so my childhood, not a lot of memories, but I had a desire to escape and to be independent. So I had a drive to be independent through money. So when I was nine, we had moved out of the city, now moved to West Bend, a smaller city, And when I was nine, I started babysitting There was no certification back then, right? and I had a babysitting, dynasty.

Lynn: 5:18

A dynasty.

Deborah: 5:19

yes, all the parents. that's all I did. I didn't really go do other things that regular kids in middle school did, because I was very insecure, very self conscious. And, but I wanted to make money. And I had my first regular job at a dental center. I just was looking forward. And then I purposely, when I went off to high school, decided that I wanted to be something different and not be so debilitatingly shy. And so I got myself on the pom pom squad.

Lynn: 5:49

Okay.

Deborah: 5:50

and that helped me a lot. So I don't have the typical memories or, what happened in childhood, And also because I'm an introverted intuitive, but I didn't know this at the time, I, for several years, couldn't look people in the eye.

Lynn: 6:03

Okay.

Deborah: 6:04

it was because during a couple of times when it was a boy, of course, that I felt something for fifth grade and seventh grade. and if I looked them in the eye, it was like something was flowing through them into my soul. I was so overwhelmed by my experience of connecting with certain human beings. So as a child, you don't know what to make of any of that. Right? So then of course that manifested in all sorts of ways going forward. But yeah, I would say yeah, just a drive for independence through finances. And my mother had a difficult relationship with her. We'll probably get to that. gave me two messages. Her two messages were one, that I could do anything I wanted. She was pregnant with me at 19 she had a very bad upbringing. so she said you can do anything, but because she sought validation of her own parenting in my behavior, if I wasn't perfect, right, that was internalized by her. So while she said I could do anything, she undermined me. At the same time.

Lynn: 7:07

yeah, putting that expectation of perfectionism out there and on you.

Deborah: 7:13

yeah, she told the story like decades later about how funny it was that when I was in kindergarten, the teacher said that I just, I wouldn't paint because I was afraid to get messy. And at that point I was like, why do you think that's funny? Why do you think it was that I was afraid to get messy?

Lynn: 7:29

Mm hmm.

Deborah: 7:30

Right? Because the best compliment someone could give my mother is how well behaved her three daughters were.

Lynn: 7:37

Yeah, which is interesting. I think there's so much there.

Deborah: 7:40

Oh, yeah.

Lynn: 7:41

I have so many questions. First, okay, I know people in my life that have had that same phenomenon where they don't have childhood memories. Is that, as a depth psychologist now, which I'm, which you'll share more about and I'll ask you to share more about, is that, a typical thing that can happen sometimes?

Deborah: 8:02

I mean, I don't know. Everybody's a unique person. A human being, right? sometimes I have said, why can't I have these memories of good times. It's not like my memories are terrible. I don't have that many at all. but at a certain point during my unraveling phase. I went to this past life regression exercise, which was so not me at all. And I thought now I would just describe it as active imagination. And I actually do it with some of my clients. But a past life, regression is simply just seeing what you remember. And so the facilitator will say, just what comes up if you think about five years ago, what was going on in your life. And there's so much, right? But what comes up is what's meaningful. So it's like, Oh, okay. I was doing this. I was, Oh, I had a baby, whatever. Go back another five years, go back 10 years, go back 15. Now you're in kindergarten now, right? And you just see what comes up. And we actually don't know if what we remember is accurate or not, but it doesn't matter. Because that's the material that your psyche is giving you. So you shouldn't like, oh, that's what happened. It's like, wow, that's interesting that that's what's coming up. So when we got back in the womb, I got so uncomfortable. I literally was like panicking and I was suffocating. And so not until later on, Did I realize that this connection between my mother needing to be a better mother than her awful mother, right? And that how it had been projected onto me and I could feel that projection in the womb. And so that manifested then in all sorts of ways. Now, interestingly, as I started depth psychology, which was like the first irrational decision I made in my life, but now we know why I was called there, five days before My mother died. she was going to be having a little procedure with her heart and she had a lot of trauma that she really couldn't, she couldn't have processed it. So it showed up in health issues. We called her, a hypochondriac actually, but she was going to have another procedure. And typically she would identify with that, right? Like she, She wore that as a badge, like she had all these pills she had to take and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, she was like, different around it. She was fearful. And everybody else was like, Oh, don't feel that way. Everything will be fine. And I had this feeling and I said to my sisters like, Let's honor her fear. Why are you telling her not to feel what she feels? And so my sisters and I invited her for a sleepover, and we ended up going to splash paint bar where you paint and drink. And after an, after an hour, I walked around and peeked over her shoulders and saw what she painted. And it was like, It was dark greens and reds. And yeah, and she was having a great time. Like, you could tell there was her entire life on that canvas. And then we went on and the next day I said, mom, do you want to say anything? Do you want to share memories? Do you want me to write things like, I don't know, like you're nervous. And she said a couple of things. But then I said, Mom, when you were 19 and you got unexpectedly pregnant with me, what were you thinking and feeling? And she said, well, your dad was excited, which is a rare nice thing for her to say. They're divorced and she never says anything nice to him. But then she said, I just knew I had to be a better mother. And I looked at her and I said, you know, I felt that burden. And she says, that's what Dr. Phil would say. And then we left. So that was her way of, recognizing that she caused me harm without saying that she caused me harm. And then she died three days later. So it was like a beautiful kind of, reckoning, I guess.

Lynn: 11:45

Yeah, and it's interesting, two things come up for me is Oh, she trusts Dr. Phil. So therefore, if Dr. Phil would say it, then it's, it has to have legitimacy. And then, The other thing that comes up for me, it's really interesting. You asked her, how did she feel when that happened? And she didn't really address that feeling. She just said I knew I had to be better. which is just interesting. And I'm curious. So one of, one of the questions I like to ask my guests just to pair with that childhood piece is, are there any expectations that you felt like you grew up with. Like you, you mentioned the perfectionism, but then you also mentioned that contradicting message of you can do anything. did you feel a lot, more than that perfectionism growing

Deborah: 12:36

No, not really. My, I mean, the root of my family and my mother came from poverty, right? So my sisters and I would say jumped two or three levels socioeconomically and educationally. Right? So there wasn't like, wasn't an expectation to do something. It was more like you can do whatever, right? Do you know what I'm saying? so it wasn't anybody's expectations. It was a constant infringement upon my ability to breathe. for example, I like to hang out in my bedroom, so because my mother was always trying to prove something about herself, if I was hanging out in my bedroom and I liked to read, my bedroom was my sanctuary, she came in and said, you're not being part of the family, so come out. Right? So it's much more subtle than that, or when I escaped down to the basement, which was an old rec room and I just said, oh, this is my new cave. And I cleaned it up and I scrubbed the old 70s style shower. It was disgusting. And I was like, I'm hanging down here. And so on Saturdays, which was family cleaning day, she wanted everybody to listen to Neil Diamond and clean together and be happy. But I said, I'll clean downstairs. I'll clean downstairs, which she didn't like, but I was cleaning. So she really couldn't complain about it. But she came down and would say, That's not good enough. Clean that again.

Lynn: 14:05

Oh,

Deborah: 14:06

So it was more of that. it was just like a way of living, not you know, I want to go do this. Right. and in fact, in middle school, I was a cheerleader and she got involved somehow, or I was on the volleyball team. She got involved somehow, but eventually she didn't do that. I don't know what happened with that. And then in high school, when I was asked to be on the volleyball team, she wouldn't drive me to practice. So I didn't. Get on the volleyball team. so it's different than what you're asking. maybe someone else might experience. There was no expectation. There was just constant, whatever it is you're doing isn't quite good enough and it's not mirroring back to me what I need to feel, how I'm identifying.

Lynn: 14:47

Yeah, that makes sense. And it's that you're not good enough yet. It sounds like she was wanting specific behavior to be able to validate her image that she was desiring.

Deborah: 15:00

Yeah. I mean, it was like, it's interesting because before my mom died, she still thought I could run to be president.

Lynn: 15:06

Deb, you can be anything.

Deborah: 15:08

that's what she would say. you know what? My first transformation coach I went to way, way back then when my business fell apart, my life was falling apart. I said that to her because she wanted to talk about my mom and I'm like, I don't want to talk about my mom. I want to know what I did to my business to cause it to fall apart. And I said, my mom is still waiting for me to be president. I think it's cute. And she goes, she said, Oh, that's really a burden. She just pissed me off. But of course she was onto something, right? That's before I knew about depth psychology. So yeah, so it's complex. And someone with trauma, why does she like Dr. Phil? now he's kooky, but back in the day, he had a good show and he was really trying to help people. And, My mother tried therapy, but when people have really deep trauma, they're very manipulative in order to protect themselves. unless she was going to see a Jungian analyst, a conventional therapist she'd run rings around their brain. She was very smart. She didn't get to go on to college. She barely finished high school because she didn't have what she needed from her parents. so in Dr. Phil, I think she was having fun in her inner world, but she wasn't reflecting about herself that would be too painful. But she could see, right, so people like that project onto others without realizing that something is being mirrored back for them to explore in themselves. And some people just can't. We have a whole group of people right now who project because they're not able to sort of explore their own pain, whatever it is.

Lynn: 16:37

and that is really, you used the word burden like that is really burdensome for a child to receive from a parent.

Deborah: 16:45

It's, it's not your children's job to say you were a good parent. It's not. It's not their job. If that's what you're looking for, that's not their job. Their job is to have their own journey, whether you like it or not.

Lynn: 16:59

That's really powerful. And even now sitting here and I'm not a parent, but I am constantly looking for validation as an aunt, for example. And, okay, Lynn, let's reflect on that a little bit more. that's my selfish reason for my podcast.

Deborah: 17:16

It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I suck as an aunt. I tried, but I had the first kid. Right? And so when you're the first of the siblings to have the child, everybody's like, it's all about your child. And then I was pregnant when my sister had her baby, and I was too exhausted. I think I'm that aunt that's you either really like because I'm eccentric, or you're like, I'm so not into you. So it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, but it still is like we're trying to use other people to make us feel better.

Lynn: 17:45

Yeah, rather than feeling that inner validation or the inner confidence ourselves and knowing our own worth. okay, so I want to get to the most irrational decision you've ever made, which was becoming a depth psychologist. your words. But first, can we bookend for guests, where and how you're currently spending your days? Because then I want to get into that, turn of your path a little bit more.

Deborah: 18:08

what I would say, generally speaking, is right now I'm in a sort of unleashing phase that has to do with serving the collective, not ego. Which means that I'm allowing myself to be pulled into territory that can be frightening and exciting. So the first part of our lives, when we're building our identity and our ego, we choose what to do and what goals to set. And then at a certain point, sometimes, often, that falls apart. And so the lesson is to allow yourself to be pulled by the self. in you, which is kind of like an ordering principle. so I'm at the beginning of my unleashing. So right now I have a growing, depth psychology coaching business. and so I work with people who are desiring to learn more about themselves. And science says, 80, 90 percent of you is influenced by unconscious mysterious forces. So for people who are interested in digging and exploring their unconscious, that's what I do, no matter what the topic is. And I'm about to publish my memoir, which grew out of my dissertation topic, which was exploring women's experience of reconciling sexuality and spirituality. And and then a couple of years ago, when I first moved down to Jacksonville beach, I somehow got swept up in publishing my first book and launching my podcast and just getting swept up and then the business emerged organically And now I'm like, Oh, I really have something here. like when I had Alinea before Playworks, I had that business for 14 years. And so I'm finally like, Oh, all right, let's go. and I have some sense of stability and security now that I didn't have the previous four years, which was navigating this uncertainty about my life. So did that answer your question?

Lynn: 20:10

Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate you just drawing out the multiple identities you're wearing right now. And I'm, I love that you said you're at the beginning of your unleashing, or you're at the beginning stage of that, which I think is really cool. sometimes as humans, we tend to fall into the trap of thinking we're, like, fully baked and we're never really all the way there. And I love that you're looking at it as very much a beginning. so I know you have redrawn your path many times, because you mentioned Playworks, you've mentioned, your first business, Alinea, you've mentioned your depth psychology. Is there any specific time you redrew your path that you'd want to dive into and share with listeners.

Deborah: 20:58

Well, what I'm going to say is I never intentionally redrew my path. You are blessed in a way to be like, okay, I'm going to do this. For me, it was always like, I don't know, always a, some kind of synchronistic event So it's funny, I say my first irrational decision was to answer this calling, but I guess along the way, here's what I would say and what I used to say. I have very low tolerance for not being happy. Well, happy is not really the right word, right? Happy is based on circumstances. You can't be happy every moment of the day. That's just silly, but a sense of meaning and purpose and fulfillment. So for me, the first time I had a personal mission statement, I was, first time I did that, I think I was like, I was 30, but before that I became an activist. And I didn't realize at the time, but I think because I didn't feel like I had my own voice, many people who don't have their own voice end up being a voice for others. And then eventually they have to realize that it really is they need to find their voice, right? So being other people's advocate isn't the same. As being your own advocate. And so I just, I don't know, I just got pulled places by this twinge of passion or interest. And I went all in every time. I mean, I started my own nonprofit called Women's Political Voice because I was angry at the time I had, stopped being a financial planner and there was a class action lawsuit around discrimination against women in finance. So I was like, Oh my, I have to do something. I got money for it. I went around talking with college aged women and said, at some point of your life, you should consider running for office because we need normal people, regular people who do different things to be our voices. it. each time I had this shift inside. I didn't know at the time, but it was this inner part of me saying, because when I was a financial planner, the reason I left is I couldn't make it feel meaningful anymore. So my husband would say, you're really making a lot of money right now. Why don't you just stay put, and enjoy this and keep growing? And I'm like, I'm trying. I would be like, okay, I'm going to serve people. clients who are in same sex relationships, their financial planning needs. I'm gonna work with minority business owners. You know what I mean? So I couldn't find a way to reconcile that money, the profit motive so I would just leave. I left that, I went to work for the National MS Society. And I said to them, I said, I know I'm not a lifer. I don't know why I said that to him, but I knew it. But then I went to work for an advocacy organization. I thought I was going to retire there. It was the issue that I'm still passionate about, but it was a terrible, situation. The boards that hired me, like they hated me. It was an awful situation and I stayed too long. So I, in asking for an exit plan, they just fired me and let me go. So by this time, my family really relied on my part of the income. So I couldn't get a regular job to save my life. And so these little things started happening. For example, a colleague ran for mayor. And I said, I really want to help you, but I need a job. And he's like, well, how much do you need? I said, well, I need 3, 000 to pay my bills per month. And he's like, come on, you're my campaign manager. and then some consultant showed up and said, do you want to work together on this project? It's an 8, 000 project. Yeah. So out of the necessity, I fell into my next business. I did not plan it. But I have an entrepreneurial brain. So I'm like, okay, here's what I'm noticing. Here's what consultants are doing. Here's what I'm going to do, my little niche. And then eventually I created a program that I wrote a book about, and I went around the state and worked with school districts, and that's the business that then fell apart in my midlife unraveling. And then. Playworks showed up. They just showed up. And I was like, what's Playworks? And in three weeks I had that job. but that job also became a curse for my soul and it made me leave it eventually without being able to replace that six figure income. So that's a long answer to your question, but I have never purposely drawn anything until I knew what I, if I was in the right place, then it was time to plan. And then set goals and that sort of thing. You know what I'm saying?

Lynn: 25:26

Absolutely. And thanks for, drawing out all of the different turns and curves. And, and it sounds like a lot of it has been relationship based. A lot of it has been your entrepreneurial spirit and just, ability to figure it out. As you were going through all of those turns, were you having to re, reframe how you saw yourself or rewrite the narratives you had for yourself and who you were? Or were you feeling yep, this decision makes sense. Now I'm like Deb the business owner. Yep. Now I'm Deb the activist. What were you going through like emotionally?

Deborah: 26:02

Well, not until my midlife unraveling did I really do that kind of work. I just was manic. And manic isn't really good. So manic means you're always up. So I didn't see things along the way in my relationship because I couldn't have dealt with that. And so I was very busy, very active with my children. I just, why, as I was building a new business, I decided to form Friends of Bradford Beach and help bring back the urban beach in Milwaukee and turn it into a world class beach? I didn't do that much. But why I did that? I don't know. But I did. So I let these things pull me. And then they ended up sort of being little instigators, right? Like antagonists, you have antagonistic characters along the way in your story arc. And then you also have helper characters and mentors and that sort of thing. But you kind of don't know, it's like a, it's like you're a stew. Like sometimes you can't make rhyme or reason of it until you go back and then you could kind of see the thread. So it really, it didn't matter. I was a go getter, man. I was like, I wasn't tied to. identity. I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. And the good thing about being married to the corporate guy, which I'm not married anymore, is that I did have the flexibility to do that. I wouldn't have been able to do that as a single mom. No way.

Lynn: 27:31

and it sounds like in some ways your identity was tied to being that go-getter or to, do doing all the things or having Yeah. Independent. Having a dream and being able to do it. Yes. Purpose?

Deborah: 27:44

it wasn't even dream, but it was more purpose. So am I being purposeful? And it always had to do with serving. So it was either, growing, the membership of national organization for women chapter or speaking on behalf of whatever, or even the beach. That was a community project. That's it. Didn't benefit me personally, right? but here's what's interesting. I think you'll find this interesting. At 48, which was about when everything was gonna hit the fan, crap, hit the fan. I was given an award and my friend, my fellow activist of 25 years nominated me. And I'm like, Oh, that's so sweet. Like what? Right. Why me? Like you always, you don't know how you're gonna react, but it really is true. It's Me compared to, right? So I wrote my speech and it was five, every five people got the award. So we all got to speak about our lives. And for me, I had made this list of all the people, mostly women at the time, who I would go to and say, do you think I could do this? And they'd say, of course you can. Do you think I could do this? So it was like this little permission, these little Permission pivots and everybody always said yes. So I did these things. I got to the part in my speech and when I read, well, I look like this and I'm like, I make a difference walking around being me. And I started sobbing at the podium in front of a hundred people, 150 people. I couldn't stop in that moment. I knew. So the root of knowing is not of the mind. If you only know something of the mind. Do you have incomplete knowing? Knowing is the body and the mind. And my son, who was like 12 at the time, he's Dad, go save mom. Literally, I can't move and I'm sobbing. so yeah, so that was at 48, a shift of Oh, but here's what I learned. And this is what people who are givers and pleasers need to recognize about themselves. I was seeking validation through my activism. I wasn't doing it in a truly altruistic way. Now I still do good activism. It doesn't mean that it makes you a bad person, but it makes you not as an effective of an activist if you're seeking validation through serving other people. So people who are over givers. They're basically burdening other people with telling them how giving they are. Because if you feel like a giving person, you don't need to overgive. So that is the lesson that I learned then was that, And then I had to be forced to explore my deeper relationship with myself.

Lynn: 30:20

Yeah, I, that, that's so powerful because as I feel like I'm constantly going through the exercise of okay, what do I take off my plate? It's I think digging underneath and realizing like, why am I saying yes to all of these things? and it is that need for validation. It is that could I do this? yeah. The answer is yes. Yes. Will it do good? Yeah, probably. But that doesn't mean that it is what I'm meant to be doing or should be doing or I'm doing it for validation or not out of that altruistic way. Is it the

Deborah: 30:56

yeah. It is. And it's, and then the awareness is helpful, right? So if you're aware of it, then you can wonder about it. And then you could go, Oh, when I do this sort of thing, I end up feeling validated. okay, how do I do that on my own? What sorts of things can I try that will give that feeling to myself without me sucking somebody else's blood, which is basically what we're doing, right? So yeah. Yeah.

Lynn: 31:20

Yeah. While getting like our energy sucked too, because it's not like where you're meant to be or maybe you are where you're meant to be, but you're learning the lessons that you need to be learning. in order to be the next version.

Deborah: 31:33

yeah, and some people learn the lessons and sometimes the lessons are tricky. They're not obvious, which is why, what I do is I teach people the language of the unconscious. So the mind, you won't find the answer in the mind. You really won't because the nature of the mind is defensive and ego, ego's not bad. We need ego because ego helps us manage our emotions. what wants to flood out of our unconscious and how we can, be part of the collective, a family, a business, a society or whatever. So we need ego, but ego ends up sort of being, it'll find a technique. Let's say an adverse childhood experience happens and it doesn't have to be traumatic, but And at the time, children, they don't know, they just shake it off, right? But it's stored in their body. And then when a similar situation happens, they quickly learned a defensive mechanism to, to help them get through that, right? But what happens Then as these patterns of thinking and behaving unconsciously become entrenched, but that's also what makes you really good at certain things. So there's a light and a dark side to your people pleasing, really, right? but if it's too one sided is the problem. So nothing's bad, people shouldn't judge themselves for, yeah, I am a victim. Okay. All right. that's just a one sided version of something. So now how can we like, How can we even that out, but it's probably going to include some, a little bit of falling apart or being vulnerable and then making a mistake and overcompensating until you sort of find the right balance. So it's also really messy,

Lynn: 33:04

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The messy, but juicy. I love that. was that moment, you said that moment where you were sobbing on stage at 48, was right before, Shit hit the fan. was that what led you to do some of this knowledge gathering or learning around depth psychology or can we talk a little bit about

Deborah: 33:28

No, you're going to, you're going to love this story. Oh my God. So I had talked to my former husband into moving out of the suburbs, which were killing my soul. It was really hard though, because we ended up staying 10 years and I just kept like, I like it here, but, I really like it here. Okay. Next year. and then one day he said, what if that, what if this is that thing that our marriage can't withstand. And it freaked me out. I was like in my mind going, are you saying divorce? Like you would get divorced? And I was like, okay, underground. And then eventually he did acquiesce, but acquiescing is actually not good, right? So he didn't really mean it. So anyway, that's interesting. there's a whole thing about marriage and relationships, right? So we did move out. And sort of, in a way, nothing was ever the same, let's say. But we moved to where I wanted to live in Whitefish Bay, neighborhood schools, sidewalks, all that kind of thing. And I would say it was probably like a couple years later and I can't even rem probably, I don't know. Everything happened in 2013. Let's, yeah, everything. So I began to journal, I can't live this way anymore. And six months of journeying of journaling just revealed it and it ended up being all about his behavior. So he struggles with alcoholism, but we didn't know he was an alcoholic at the time, it just started climaxing. So anyway, one day we're on a family walk. And I loved where we lived because we could walk to the little downtown and, we start walking and it's summer and it's nice and it starts to rain. And I'm excited because I love warm summer rains. Like literally, I love it being caught in a rain, but he's not into it, not into my romantic view of the situation. And so the kids, you could kind of see okay, who do I follow, right? And in that moment was a little doorway, a little surrender, because typically I would be the mediator. Then I'd be like, I'd make a case, a sales pitch and try to talk them into blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I didn't really know exactly what was going on, but instead I just started walking and they followed me. And we ended up going into this old fashioned Fitzgerald's pharmacy. And I went right to the magazine rack and I was like, yoga journal. Okay. I haven't bought that in five years later on in the bathroom. symbol of bathroom on the toilet. Never page through anything on the toilet. And I'm paging and now I'm looking in the back of the magazine. Never do that either. Those ads are stupid, right? And I come upon this ad for Pacifica Graduate Institute. It is fiery orange and red and it's this program M hybrid MAPHD in depth psychology. And I went, what is that? Literally didn't know what it was. And after the bathroom, I went right to my home office and I looked it up and I was reading on the website and I'm like, I don't know what any of this means, but I know who Carl Jung is. I've heard of him anyway. And so I kept it a secret. This is the thing about when you're being polled. by something mysterious is that you don't share it. You don't share it with people. It's like between you and the divine. And so for the next three weeks, I did research like, why does this have to be in California? Do they do this anywhere else? Nope. It's gotta be California, right? We're, they're ahead of the game there. And so I, in three weeks, put together a sales pitch for my husband and his, I knew it wasn't going to go well. And his answer was, oh, how is this going to help our family?

Lynn: 37:03

Gosh.

Deborah: 37:04

I said, you know, all that money you spent on golf, literally 10, 000 a year, I said, this is my golf. So that was another pivot point in our relationship. But what I knew was that I had to have this, even though I didn't know what it was like the website felt like I was reading sacred text and depth psychology actually is the study of the unconscious. It, Carl Jung was one of the founders, but so was Freud. Freud is, the beginning of depth psychologists exploring the unconscious. And depth psychology is in alignment with the root of psychology. And people don't know this. The root of psychology is breath and soul. Has nothing to do with brain. So all of this neuropsychology, all it is is consciousness. I don't know what it is. It's trying, the mind is trying to grasp something and they're losing soul. So it also became my spiritual practice and I lived everything in real time. So as I was falling apart, I was like, Oh, this is the class on getting the complexes and the grip of a complex. Oh my God. I know what that feels like. I'm going through it right now. I can't believe what's happening to me. So yeah, so it was irrational. Right. And I knew. I knew that was the crap that was going to hit the fan, that was going to put something in motion and I, and it, and I didn't just accept it. It also took time for me to allow myself to unravel, and it took me three years to actually start my education, but I knew it was the answer to a question, but I didn't know what the question was, and I knew it would save my soul. And the year before I attended, it was the working of a recurring dream, actually, that helped me. begin to prepare for what was going to be happening to me, with me, for me.

Lynn: 38:54

Wow. In that program. And in life.

Deborah: 38:58

No, in life. Yeah. So you could say that depth psychology and Carl Jung has been the wise old man, right? And I have a real life wise old man, like a spiritual mentor. He's 80. but yeah, he was my mentor in my story arc, really helped me find meaning in the falling apart and helped me come into deeper relationship with myself, which was covered up by lots of defensive

Lynn: 39:24

Yeah. Which sounds like a, an incredibly difficult few years, and really powerful, but it sounds like you followed your knowing. Between that, sales pitch, that conversation, and the three years, and when you, finally enrolled, did that, did that, falling apart or unraveling start immediately from that sales pitch and how it went? Or was it, did you kind of, shy back into yourself and question

Deborah: 39:58

the universe was going to kick my ass. Now the faucet was open there. There was no. So this is Hermes for your listeners. archetypal psychology is. Very helpful. Identifying, finding your story in the myths, the Greek myths, the Roman myths, the Irish myths, whatever. These are archetypal experiences, and when you find your story, it's really helpful to make you not feel like you're alone. So Hermes is the Greek god. He's known as the guide of souls. And he shows up as a trickster and he's also a messenger and everything communication. So when your technology isn't working, Hermes is there prompting you to expand your consciousness. So Hermes is right on the edge of consciousness. So I'm glad you bring up like, okay, that point, because often the hero doesn't answer the call the first time, right? The hero and the hero and the hero's journey. And often then Hermes will really push you over the edge. into your unconscious and you have to let go of control. The more you try to control, the more you'll probably drink or find another sort of behavior that you'll look to get relief from, but it will only be temporary relief. So, um, no, in fact, there was a week So my business fell apart at the height. I had gotten to a quarter million business and I was so manic and I didn't know that I was trying to keep something down. So manic. I have my team and the dining room and I'm like swirling and twirling around the table, big pieces of paper. Here's how we're going to get to a million. And it was a moment where it was like that a beautiful mind moment where he is brilliant and crazy. And my team looked at me like. Whoa. And not soon after the strangest things happened, it all fell apart. They all turned against me. Two tried to sue me for unsubstantiated reasons. It all fell apart and I was left for myself, but I still thought it was about my business. Then I went to this transformation coach, wanted to talk about my business. She wanted to talk about my mother. That week, my husband's drinking climaxed and my middle school age son, who has suffered very much in conventional education, said he didn't want to live anymore. it was pretty much a down on my knees, shit, this is about my family and my marriage and relationships. And so I had to sort of surrender. And there are ways that I, that people can think about because surrendering is really fearful, terrifying. But I said, I know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I know at the end of whatever this is. I didn't know what to do about my marriage. and I was like, Oh my God, now that I know I'm married to an alcoholic, Oh, there's lots of movies about that. That's my movie. I'm living that movie. I'm living that myth. Right. And so then my attention would be drawn to certain things like. Oprah Super Soul Sunday. I began to be obsessed with that seeking, searching Dr. Phil back when he was norm, normal, seeking for my story. And he said, one, he said one thing that's very true that you're not ready to get divorced until there aren't emotional, isn't emotional stuff anymore. Because all you'll do is attach that to your next victim. So that's why those first post divorce relationships often don't work. Because they seem like they're providing everything the other relationship didn't. But just wait, things will come up. And I have a whole blog post about first post divorce relationships. So yeah. So I, and then I had to develop a sense of humor. I had to allow myself to sleep and be afraid of getting depressed because I was sleeping so much. I just had to weather through the discomfort. And I would say I started probably a year and a half later at Pacifica. So then I was like, Oh, that was, I didn't know what I was going to do with it or why, but I considered it really super expensive therapy the time.

Lynn: 44:18

Which, that's a great reason to get a graduate degree, right? Is to, do the work for yourself. I can't think of a better reason, actually. so was that Hermes the entire way? from the rain all the way through the alcoholism, the challenges your son was going through? Was that Hermes just instigating?

Deborah: 44:38

Yeah. So Hermes is often there during synchronicity. So in order to see, synchronicities are all around you, but in order to have it reach into you, there has to be like this little moment where you kind of give in and give up. it doesn't mean you're accepting the suffering or the situation. Really what you're doing is sort of just I can't control this moment. So in that moment where I was like, Why am I going to spend energy fighting with my former husband to get them to walk in the rain? Why? And I let, so in, it's really brief. In that moment, there was an opening and that's where Hermes can come in and communicate via the yoga journal. And then if you think about, so the unconscious speaks in metaphor, in symbolism, the language of the unconscious frustrates the mind on purpose because the mind doesn't like new insights. The mind doesn't like the new unless you feel like in control of the new. Like when we decide I'm going to go to school to do this, that's from an ego perspective, right? So real like insights, new insights come from the unknown, from the unconscious. So you sort of have to have these moments where you're in a lower level of consciousness or that's why when people bottom out, let's say they have a drug addiction, But they have to hit, that's what bottom is it's a surrendering. It's a total surrender. and I have to remind myself of this every day, the harder I try at something, it's a kind of resisting. And when I go, okay, whatever universe helped me out here, then I'll pick up my phone, there's my new client or whatever it is.

Lynn: 46:21

I love that. okay, I feel like I could keep asking you questions and hearing your stories all day, so we might have to do a part two at some point, But I've heard a lot of advice and I've heard surrender and allow the universe to give signals, stop trying to control. What other advice would you give, Deb, to, to those who are redrawing their path? and I want to recognize too that most people are probably redrawing their path, not out of, Choice. Right? It's like that seeking for more purpose or that knowing but not knowing the what. So any advice you would give there?

Deborah: 46:59

I'm glad that you brought that up because some of my, clients come to me for the same reasons they go to a therapist. there's always an inciting incident. So it could be divorce, it could be a death in the family, it could be becoming a mom, it could be I just got fired. So they're so right. So in that situation, Oh, I got to redraw my path. So they're already being intentional about, I have to adapt in some way, right? So where the unconscious comes in, and you just redraw your path. If you're like, well, I've always wanted to do this business. So let's do it. Okay, we'll do it. That might work for you. Right? But if you really want to, really go deep and get connected to what you don't know about yourself, then, my advice is to, I guess, start being curious. and not judgmental. So to start being like, Oh, wow, I really hate that person. Oh, what's going on there? And to not be judgmental, like you did something wrong when you told somebody to F off, but to say, what's happening beneath the surface and where does that come from? And what's the first time I remember You know, being shamed, which is why, I sweat when the boss asks me to come into the office. I mean, bosses should never do that anyway. That's just cruel. It is the worst. They're so unaware, because a lot of us have an authority complex, but knowing that. doesn't do anything. Awareness, yeah, I mean, that helps, but it doesn't really change it or disarm that twinge. You have to sort of go back and remember, like, when did that start? And then, there's a lot of stuff. There's reconnecting with the, our eternal inner child. So I guess my advice is, Drop the judgment. Be curious about the words that you're using and the meaning that you're applying to certain things and wonder about what you're feeling, especially because we relate through projection. There's no other way we relate. We just, that's how we do it. And so when something's coming at us and there's emotion, it's actually not about that thing at all. It's about something old. that thing represents every single time. and then learn the language of the unconscious. So just explore yourself. So, you know, that probably leads into I did my book. Your Soul is Talking. Are You Listening? is kind of like a beginner's guide. It tells you all the different ways your unconscious is trying to get your attention, like dreams, synchronicity, OCD, obsessions with certain behaviors during certain times of your life, those aren't bad things. There's a light side. They help ground you. obsessions with Netflix series and certain films or genres or music or your emotions. Your psychological type. Myers Briggs is actually based on Carl Jung's psychological types theory. So usually people do it very surface level. your body, your illness, if you're carrying extra weight, there's a spiritual meaning or a spiritual slash psychological meaning to everything going on with your body. So my book just says, here are all the different ways And then I offer a framework for finding meaning. And then also I teach you how to work with those images, dream images or emotions through kind of a process. So I also have like free resources, up on my website too. So that's what I would say is curious, wonder, don't judge, be aware. And then, I don't know, if you're curious, then start digging and being of

Lynn: 50:41

Yeah. Learn how to Mm-Hmm. Learn how to decipher that juiciness and everything that's going on

Deborah: 50:47

Yeah. Yeah. It's like finding, find meaning.

Lynn: 50:50

And I know you have a podcast also, and you've sent me some episodes. I get super vivid dreams. And it was just helpful to hear others, talk through their dreams or, like you breaking down dreams because it helped me to think about, when I wake up in the morning, rather than let that dream kind of fester and disturb me all day, I can

Deborah: 51:13

Oh.

Lynn: 51:16

start to think, okay, and get curious about that.

Deborah: 51:20

Yeah. we could have another chat about dreams because it's not intuitive to work with your dreams because we've been trained to be so intellect, right, mind. It should be intuitive, but this is not a society that values that, right? So then you sort of have to undo some teaching and some myth busting. And for, for example, if you're having a dream and your ex shows up and you're having sex with your ex. that has nothing to do with what you think it is. That X represents a part of you, is reflecting back something about yourself or that time or a dynamic to explore. And dreams about sex have to do with becoming intimate with different parts of ourselves. So we might be grossed out, which is indicating that we're really uncomfortable with a deeper part of ourselves that's trying to sort of Come up to the surface. So that's just a little bit of right there. You see how you wouldn't think about that?

Lynn: 52:24

Yeah, I can immediately apply what you just shared to my sex dreams the other night, which I'm not supposed to admit to having because of society and all of the things. So I appreciate that. can you share with listeners where exactly they can find you? And I'll also include information in the show notes, but where do you want folks to find you?

Deborah: 52:45

Yeah, it's very simple. Everything is at deborahlukowicz. com. So D E B O R A H L U K O V I C H dot com. At the top are all my socials, so clicks to my podcast and Instagram and I have a really nice community on Twitter where we do a lot of reflections. I post reflection questions and that's my favorite platform actually. And then, on my writing page, you can see the book, this book, Soul Book, as well as my memoir is coming out soon. I'm looking for launch team members. It's a midlife story that's juicy. And I also, people can listen to me read my chapters of my Soul Book for free on my podcast. So they don't even have to buy it. They could listen to it. The first chapter is called The Discovery of You. And yeah, I mean, they can see my services. I will offer, if anyone wants to schedule an exploratory chat, which is free, it's 30 minutes, we can dig into a dream, I'll send you a copy of my book, a sign, if you want it signed, but a free copy of my book. And yeah, and if they subscribe, they just get links. I really love making content because my Overall mission is to grow a movement of self reflecting humans. So I love writing and sharing, having conversations and sharing. So a lot of free stuff, but I produce it all my own.

Lynn: 54:04

Love that. Thanks, Deb. And I will say you do a really good job of breaking down a lot of that, the subconscious language and that understanding for folks that maybe are newbies or who, who are very new into exploring. So I've always appreciated that. Awesome. thank you so much for sharing your story today on Redraw Your Path, and I'm so excited to get it out there and for listeners to connect with you.

Deborah: 54:33

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Lynn: 54:36

Thanks for listening to Redraw Your Path with me, Lynn Debilzen. If you like the episode, please rate and review. That helps more listeners find me. And don't be shy, reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn and sign up for my e-newsletter at redrawyourpath.com. I can't wait to share more inspiring stories with you. See you next week.