Redraw Your Path
Redraw Your Path
Slowing Down is Where the Magic Is | Ep. 031 - Michelle Maidenberg
Join host Lynn Debilzen in this captivating interview with Dr. Michelle Maidenberg on Redraw Your Path!
In this interview, Lynn learns about Michelle’s journey growing up as a daughter of young parents and granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, which set the foundation for her career as therapist, professor, and author. Their conversation touches on:
- How intergenerational trauma gets passed across generations, and how each of us has a role to play in healing for our families
- How relationships with parents when we’re young can show up in our adult lives in terms of over-functioning, the need to have it all together, loneliness, and more
- The ACE Method - acceptance, compassion, and empowerment - for living a more valued and mindful life
Tune in for a dynamic discussion on life and growth!
About Michelle:
Michelle P. Maidenberg, Ph.D., MPH, LCSW-R maintains a private practice in Harrison, NY. She is also the Co-Founder and Clinical Director of “Thru My Eyes”, a nonprofit 501c3 organization that offers free clinically-guided videotaping to chronically medically ill individuals who want to leave video legacies for their children and loved ones.
Michelle is adjunct faculty at New York University (NYU) teaching a graduate course in Mindfulness Practice. She is a Board of Directors member at The Boys & Girls in Mount Vernon and is a member of the American Red Cross Crisis Team. She serves on the Board of Directors of the Westchester Trauma Network (WTN) in Westchester NY.
Michelle is the author of the book “Free Your Child From Overeating" 53 Mind-Body Strategies For Lifelong Health” and new book “Ace Your Life: Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want” is available at: Thriftbooks, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target and Amazon. Listen to Michelle’s TED TALK: Circumventing Emotional Avoidance. She is also a blogger for Psychology Today and publishes a new guided meditation every Thursday on her YouTube channel. Michelle is dedicated and invested in health and mental health advocacy.
Connect with Michelle:
Website: www.michellemaidenberg.com
Find her book: Ace Your Life: Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want https://amzn.to/3Ye8fxc
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellemaidenberg/
Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/contributors/michelle-p-maidenberg-phd-mph-lcsw-r-cgp
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michellemaidenberg
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DrMichelleMaidenberg
X: @DrMaidenberg
Instagram: @drmichellemaidenberg
Connect with Lynn:
- www.redrawyourpath.com
- www.lynndebilzen.com
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynndebilzen/
Hey friends, I'm Lynn Debilzen and welcome to Redraw Your Path, a podcast where I share stories of people who have made big changes in their lives and forged their own unique paths. I talk with guests about their moments of messiness, fear, and reframing on their way to where they are now. My goal is to inspire you about the shape your life could take. So let's get inspired. Hello, hello friends, it's Lynn here and I'm really excited to share another great interview with you. You're going to get a ton of value from my conversation with Dr. Michelle Maidenberg. We talked about being stuck and how to navigate that stuckness and really help yourself and build the tools to get to the other side. so I really hope you enjoy this interview. Here's a little bit about our guest, Dr. Michelle Maidenberg, LCSW, maintains a private practice in Harrison, New York. She is also the co founder and clinical director of Thru My Eyes, which is a nonprofit that offers free clinically guided videotaping to chronically medically ill individuals who want to leave video legacies for their children and loved ones. She is adjunct faculty at New York University, aka NYU, teaching a graduate course in mindfulness practice. She is the author of the book Free Your Child from Overeating: 53 Mind Body Strategies for Lifelong Health. and Ace Your Life: Unleash Your Best Self, and Live the Life You Want. Both of them are available anywhere you can get your books. she also has a TED Talk, Circumventing Emotional Avoidance. you can find her on Psychology Today. She publishes new guided meditations, everything. Thursday on her YouTube channel. She is all over the place, helping folks live better lives and navigate that stuckness. so I really enjoyed connecting with her and I hope you enjoy our conversation and the takeaways from it. Welcome to Redraw Your Path, Michelle. How are you today?
Michelle:Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Lynn:I appreciate you being able to and willing to share your story today. so let's start with where you grew up. Can you give me some context about your early life and where and how did you grow up?
Michelle:Yeah. So I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and my parents were really young. So my parents married when my mom was 18, and my father was 19, which is really young.
Lynn:Wow. Yes.
Michelle:super young. And they had me a year later. And then they had my brother, Basically 10 months after,
Lynn:Okay. Oh my gosh. That's, what do they say? Irish twins.
Michelle:yeah, Irish twin so yeah, it's pretty amazing. so yeah, my parents divorced when I was three and, I also have to give a backdrop, my grandparents were all Holocaust survivors. So they came from, what was then Czechoslovakia and most of their families were murdered, you know, in concentration camps. And so there was a lot of intergenerational trauma, which you can imagine.
Lynn:yes. Oh my gosh.
Michelle:So they immigrated to the United States and really just came here with the shirt on their back. Literally they, they had nothing, literally nothing. but you could imagine emotionally, cause they entered the war when they were like teenagers. So it was like a formative developmental time where they were really, you're impacted no matter what, obviously, but, they're, they were really traumatized, and specifically emotionally, one thing that are very clearly is, my aunt used to always talk about how her parents never said, I love you and that really bothered her. That really bothered her. And then my dad used to say, oh, it's not a big deal. they don't have to say it. I feel it. And I know they do. But I, that always stands out in my mind. I also remember a really interesting story. So I remember Always hearing this from my aunt, they never said I love you never and I noticed it too. both sets of grandparents came from different socioeconomic status, like kind of families. So that also differentiated them. But everybody knew each other. And during that time, for whatever reason, the communities are very close. I always from, I only heard stories about the War, particularly from one grandmother, my, my maternal grandmother, she would talk about it a lot and she would tell very specific detailed stories about like her time in the camps and all of that. So I heard these stories since I was, and I didn't realize what an impact it made on me because to me, it was just a story. Like it was something that I heard, I didn't realize how I felt about it.
Lynn:We separate feeling.
Michelle:I heard about it so often that it just I became immune to it in some respects.
Lynn:Mm
Michelle:And I do really, today, I do really think that impacted the trajectory of my life and my chosen career.
Lynn:Okay. Okay.
Michelle:I'm an empath by nature and I must have, thinking back, I must've really felt such deep empathy and compassion and sadness that I couldn't locate in my body and my mind, right? Because I was developmentally, I wasn't mature enough to connect to that. But I think that, and I realize that now, and now actually I feel so sad for them, when I think about what they went through. one day, I was a teenager, I was like a, a young teenager, and I said to myself, Why is it that she has to say it to us, why can't we say it to her? Maybe that will make an impact. I don't know. so I decided to experiment. I remember I approached her and I said, I love you. And I gave her a hug and she said, I love you back to me.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:And ever since then, we would say, I love you to each other.
Lynn:Mm hmm.
Michelle:And I had the privilege of her saying, I love you to me because, I reached out to her. The other thing, which I have to say, and this is, Such like a profound story and it like really impacts me. But when she was the last one to die, this particular grandmother and, which is incredible in and of itself. Cause she was always the sickly one with like really bad rheumatoid arthritis. So you would think she'd be the one to, she was the last one. And they all died like really late in age, which is amazing. she died when she was like close to a hundred years old. Yeah. I was there, she, again, she wasn't eating, drinking. I was, I went to the rehab. And I was the only one there with the home attendant at the time and I was holding her hand and I was kissing her and singing to her and I don't know what me compelled me to say, but I started to sing, Hush Little Baby to her. And I sang the whole song and again, I never did this before it was. I sang the whole song, finished, and then there's this, Hebrew song that I, again, I don't know where it came from, but I just started belting it out. And then at the end of the song, as soon as the song ended, literally, she took her last breath.
Lynn:Oh, wow.
Michelle:And I, I said to them, I said, I think she just died. And she was like, what? And anyway, I was just like beside myself. And I felt such like honor that she died. And she gave me the honor to be with her. that was so meaningful to me. And then when I was at the, when I was giving the eulogy, at her funeral, I told the story. And a rabbi came over to me and he said, do you know what you did? I said, what are you talking about? He said, the song that you sang to her is the song that we sing so that the soul goes up to heaven.
Lynn:Really? Mm
Michelle:her permission to die. She, yes. And I was bawling. I literally, I was just like, what? And if I tell you that's, you know, it makes me more and more believe in spiritualism and
Lynn:Absolutely.
Michelle:that place, and I just remember, I was just, I could not believe that, and I can't tell you what made me sing her that song. I have no clue. I never sing that Like it's not a song that I sing. So anyway, so yeah, so so many things. There's so many things, that affected me. And when my parents divorced when I was three, which I was very young, you can imagine, it's all I knew growing up. And it, unfortunately evolved into me attending five different elementary schools, which was very challenging. there was always financial, upheaval. There's always disagreements and arguments. there was a history even of some substance use, abuse. So it was, yeah, long road ahead of me.
Lynn:Yeah. well, and it sounds like you had those really powerful relationships with your grandparents. Were you bouncing between mom and dad after the divorce?
Michelle:Yeah. So it's interesting because my grandparents were, they were a little challenged, emotionally, like I said, and, when things were going on in my life, I always wondered why my grandparents didn't step in.
Lynn:Yeah.
Michelle:I was, yeah. And it came to me again, when I was a teenager, I was like, how could they let us go through that? And, it was like really frustrated and angry. And I approached my grandmother and I said to her, I said, I don't understand, if it would be me, I would have jumped in, for my grandchildren, I don't get it. And she, of course, which again, there's so much denial, like I have to say, so much avoidance and denial. And that's what I write about, stuckness. and she said to me, she said, we didn't know what was going on. we asked and they denied it and we just believe them. And I do believe that I do believe that. Cause it's very easy. Again, once you've experienced so much trauma, you repress, and that's actually my adaptation, I repress. I've learned that about myself over the years that I repress and where something would come to me maybe months or who knows even not even come to me now, sometimes it comes to me like readily and sometimes it takes an hour or two hours, but never like a prolonged period of time. Eventually I'm able to connect with it in a more mindful, obviously, beneficial way, but that is definitely, I could slip so easily into that. it's so easy for me to sleep into repression.
Lynn:Yeah, it sounds like a learned behavior that has benefited not just you, but generations past and that gets passed down, right? Yeah.
Michelle:It's a coping skill. I talk a lot about adaptation and, our brains are wired, to protect us. that's its main focus. It's its executive functioning is to protect us from danger and discomfort. And again, when I say danger, I'm putting air quotes, right? Because it's perceived danger. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's actual danger. so it's constantly protection, protection, protection formatively. And yeah, things, and also what an incredible gift to some extent, right? Like your mind knows that it can't handle all of that stimulus and handle all of that. Disappointment and whatever that it shuts down and it allows you to compartmentalize it so you could focus and that you could function and like how wondrous and amazing that our minds actually could do that. I know
Lynn:Absolutely. And it's interesting because it sounds like you started to make some of those connections early on for yourself. And then, you have, really taken the time and an entire career, adulthood, to learn some of that. thank you for sharing about your childhood. It sounds like, not just the context of where and how you grew up, but that context of parents, grandparents, and being Holocaust survivors. that knowledge just sets the tone. the landscape. So what I like to do with guests is hear where you started. where and how are you currently spending your days?
Michelle:Sure. So I have a very enriched life. I'm happy to say it has its challenges like everybody else. Of course. I have four kids ages. 24 to 15, which. Mind blowing to me, three boys and a girl, and I was married 25 years and I'm recently going through a divorce, unfortunately. So through my evolution, I've really Got it, gotten an opportunity to really understand myself better and what my needs are. And through the evolution of writing my book, it really honed in on how and the way I want to live a more valued life for myself. Yeah. And, it's again, it's a big adjustment, of course, it's again, a lot of feelings, it's a lot of challenging feelings. it's a challenging situation in and of itself, but I'm proud to say that, I'm doing it in an extremely mindful and thoughtful way. And, both myself and, my children's father, co parent and a beautiful. beautiful way. And we're really, it's all about the kids and it's about, making sure that they're functioning and living, a beneficial life and a thriving life. so we really co parents. we really make it a point to do that. We have a very, very good relationship. It's not the typical type of it was more like an evolution. you're wonderful, I'm wonderful. You're respectable, I'm respectable. But, we're not the best together. And, a lot of dynamics played out over the years, which, I am completely 100 percent aware of and take responsibility for. I know my part in it. he knows his part in it. We can't go back in time, but we need to move forward and be healthy. that's the most important thing. yeah. and I appreciate also that as much as, we've gotten to this place, we've always been, really. Like I said, very kind of mindful parents and I'm so proud of my kids. I really am with, so that's that, but in terms of my career, I, I always say this, but I took my student loan money when I was in college and I put myself in therapy,
Lynn:Wow. You could do that at that time? They didn't have to pay it directly to the college?
Michelle:no, no, yeah, which is amazing, right? I don't know why I did, but I knew I didn't want my life to be the way it was, and I knew that I didn't want to follow the patterns of behavior that my grandparents parents, and that I wanted it to end there, with my own, kind Children and generations like moving forward. So I decided that is something that I wanted to commit to. And I did. And, by nature, like I said, I was always helping, listening, attuning to, others. And actually in high school, I won, an award in psychology
Lynn:Really?
Michelle:I I got the highest grade on the AP exam. And literally I remember the feeling I felt like I won an academy award. I was so happy. So it was just in me, it was just in me. I knew what I wanted to do literally since I was a child, which is pretty amazing. And, I'm a pretty passionate disciplined person in general by nature. So, you know, I was go, go, go, I went to college, went to graduate school got a masters, then a PhD, then another masters. I'm always, I'm actually doing two training programs right now that I'm involved in. I'm always doing continuing education. It's really important to me. I always say if I was, an independently wealthy person, I would just do it. literally just sit and, go to school and, and learn more, and learn more. and I also learn through my writing, through my, through my patients. I just, I love learning. I love, I like, it's a very formative value of mine is learning. So what do I do? I write, and that actually is a new strength
Lynn:Okay. Awesome.
Michelle:A new golden shadow, I'm going to call it. I have a lot of gaps in my education because I, went to so many different schools. I have a lot of gaps, and I see that, through executive functioning and, expressive language and in certain areas, I know where they are. But for some reason, when I write, I'm able to really be a lot more articulate, which is pretty amazing. And I only discovered that some years ago.
Lynn:Yeah. That's beautiful.
Michelle:Yeah, yeah. And I love writing because it really helps me, to get my feelings on paper and my thoughts on paper and it's helpful to other people. So what could be better than that? Right? I wrote two books. And then my recent book, I just, did the audio book, which I'm so excited. I narrated it. which is great. Really exciting. And this is like my life's work. And then I do, I'm a Psychology Today blogger, which I'm so honored that they, chose me. And I recently, which is so exciting too, they just recently approached me to do TikToks for them.
Lynn:Oh my gosh. How fun.
Michelle:so cool. Yeah. And cause I have a YouTube channel and I, publish a new guided meditation every Thursday morning. So they saw my guided meditations and they asked me to do some TikToks, which I thought, again, is so cool. and then I also, I also teach, a mindfulness practice class at NYU. So I, I could honestly say everything that I do, I absolutely love. I love working, I love going to work, I love spending my time at work, I love people. I say if I die tomorrow, I would die with a smile on my face. And I mean that. wholeheartedly.
Lynn:Love that. it sounds like a real, portfolio career where at the center is that, therapy piece and healing and wanting to help others do the healing that you yourself have done.
Michelle:and I'm continuing to do. I'm actually, and I will never stop doing. So I want to say that. It's an evolution because every developmental stage and period in our lives, we change, we evolve. We don't ever want to, right? We ebb and flow. And I never want to stay. stuck. Never want to stay stuck. the other thing too is I started a non profit which is called Thru My Eyes and it offers free clinically guided videotaping for chronically medically ill individuals who want to leave a video legacy for their children and loved ones. It's a free service. I've done over 300 videotapes. I'm actually looking to restructure it now. cause I really want it to be more vast and to cover, more, nationally, and that's been an amazing project and I'm looking for people, to really venture in with me cause I'm finding that at this point, I really want to offer it to more people. and I videotaped somebody in rural America, like I, I forgot what state it was, but somebody who didn't have access to internet. Yeah. She had seven children, no internet and really did not have any financial means. So she went to her doctor's office and she videotaped at her doctor's office and used their internet.
Lynn:Wow. That's really beautiful. And like a huge gift that you're giving to that family and to the world.
Michelle:but I really need help. to be able to follow this through, I can't do it on my own, unfortunately. Wish I could. but I'm always looking for people who are interested. I'm happy to share.
Lynn:Awesome. we will put that request out to listeners and, I have a really amazing network. So I'm hoping that, maybe the right person will be in touch. Okay. So we heard. Where you started, we heard what you're doing now. I'm curious, before we talk about any of the turns that got you here, can you share a little bit more about any expectations that came out of your childhood or pressures or molds you didn't ask for? how did you expect your life to go? Yep.
Michelle:we all have expectations, right? I have to say, this kind of divorce. is one thing that's really throwing me for a loop, one because my parents divorced when I was so young, So, in my mind, my trajectory was I'm gonna be married to one person for my entire life and that is it. and I really didn't want to continue that cycle, so to speak.'cause I know how detrimentally it impacted me, So that's something that I'm really. Trying to get a grapple on, so that was an expectation I had that's been very disappointing, and it's disappointing on a number of different levels. It's disappointing. I think because of the structure of how my life has changed even like socially and otherwise. there's a lot that goes along with that, with friendships and empathy and other things. and I know who I am. I think, the expectations also is how I should be treated, or how people should attune to me. And unfortunately, many people don't have present moment awareness. You know, many people are in a different, vibration or frequency, and that leads to me judging and insisting and, you know, shitting and all those lovely things that I do and we do, and that's not helpful for anybody. So I, I'm really trying to work on that a lot and really become more aware of that. so that's definitely one expectation. Yeah, That's a biggie. I think another big one, which I have to say, and I, it's interesting. My sister who's 15 years younger than I am. She's from my father's second marriage. She moved in with me for the past couple of weeks.
Lynn:Okay. Okay.
Michelle:she doesn't have a family. She's not married. and we've had some really deep conversations and unfortunately we both don't have. very cohesive relationships, with our parents, both of our parents, and we share the same dad. and there's good reason for it and et cetera. However, we had this conversation this week about what it's like, because we live in this construct and we live in this kind of world where your parents are supposed to be your biggest cheerleaders, And what it leads to you feeling about yourself. And also just, the judgments that you make about yourself and context to the rest of the world, feels just how that feels, and it was just a really interesting, meaningful kind of conversation, on loneliness. on all of that. Yeah.
Lynn:Has that brought up a lot of, not lovable, not worth being, your parents pride and joy? can you say more about what that's brought up in terms of expectations?
Michelle:Yeah. So I think, listen, I am an over functioning person. Let's be real. Okay. and I've been like that since I was born practically, I am like probably the most disciplined person you could be. People tell me that all the time, relative to my health, my wellness, my self care. Et cetera. Right. People like, how do you do that? I don't understand. and I said, no, I'm not any different than you. I don't have a different vein structure. I don't have a different physiological structure than you do. it's just a matter. And I really know about stuckness. that is my strength. I know about stuckness. I know how to get through stuckness. That's what I write about. That's what I live, I think, you could look at me and say, And people say this all the time, I don't know. And you even said it, I don't know how you do so much. I don't know. Right. So while that's a beautiful thing and I appreciate it so much, and I know it comes from such a loving place, which I so appreciate, I want to say that it also comes with, which people don't realize these expectations. that's what you represent. That's how you need to be. That's who you need to be. If you're not like that, then who are you? There's a lot that goes on with that expectation that people don't realize subliminally that gets communicated when we make these remarks or assumptions about people. And I know the other piece of it, which I was talking about socially, there's the sense Michelle has her shit all together. she could get through anything. She's the most resilient woman I've ever met. She's so strong. that, oh yeah, she doesn't need to be like, attuned to. She doesn't need to be like, She doesn't need to be called and say, how are you or how are you doing? Or let me take you out because you must be having a hard time. You know, this is a, this is a challenging time. It has to be, how could it not be? Or I want to hear if it is or isn't, no, and that's part of the issue. And I don't necessarily share that. because again, that makes me vulnerable. So it's a catch 22. although, I've cultivated really close friendships, obviously, and, not obviously, but I've cultivated very strong relationships and friendships where I am able to reach out to people. many people and who I do feel comfortable and who are very safe and who are very like loving and responsive and all of that. But I think underneath that, is this idea that I have to function the way I do in order to be who I am. And what does that look like if I'm not that person? that's scary. That's really scary. And there's some practicality to that too. I say that too, because. I am alone. I am alone to some extent. people like, oh, but you have your kids. Come on. kids are not there to take care of you. And I don't want my kids to take care of me. I don't want to rely on a man or like a partner to take care of me. I saw that with my mom. that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Cause I don't want that repeated. I pride myself on being independent. I don't want that. and then also. Oh, but you have friends. No, friends are great. I love them. They're so valuable and wonderful. And I can't say enough about them, but they have their own lives So that's the reality. And I don't have that strong family structure. I don't, so there's a lot, it's heavy.
Lynn:Yeah, Yeah, I'm chuckling a little bit because so much of what you're saying resonates with me. just the over functioning, the, doing all the things, having to be the person that has it all together, and always caretaking for others. yet. What does that mean about me if I need that caretaking or that attuning? thank you for sharing that. I'm curious, now let's like talk about your path and how you took your childhood and those expectations to get to where you are now. can you share with listeners just like what was the first big way that you redrew your path or, got through stuckness? Because That's your expertise, but what was your first way that you redrew?
Michelle:think, I think from the start, and again, I don't know why I did this, but I did, I've always had older women mentors in my life.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:who've taken an interest in me and who really loved me, just for who I was and am. And I've always had that throughout my life, literally. And different phases, different people, different constructs, it was always present. And I sought it out. That's the thing. I sought it out. I needed it. I wanted it. I sought it out. I had it. So that was one thing, I definitely feel like that really builds on my confidence, resilience. I think also the fact that I put myself in therapy, and I was willing to some extent, and I want to say to some extent, to see myself. Because, of course, going through the process I'm going through now, I realize how repressed I actually was, and how defensive and protective I really was, and I really wasn't open to seeing myself. I have to tell you. The last five years, I really have been opening to see myself. It's a whole different ball of wax. I thought I was so open and I wasn't.
Lynn:I just think of us all as these onions, right? And all the layers. Do you think in 20 years, 30 years, you'll look back and say, at this period, I really wasn't growing in the way I thought I was?
Michelle:100%. I, it's interesting. I did grow in some ways and I didn't grow in other ways, that was my part of my journey. And I, you can't force somebody to grow if they're not ready to. I'm only where I am now because of my process.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:journey. This is where I needed to be. And even in my relationships, if I go through, it's so fascinating if I go through my kind of intimate relationships, from when I was a teen till now, because I've always had like long term boyfriends, that was kind of my thing. I also always had a boyfriend, or somebody who loved me, and paid attention to me, and those, and they were also, I didn't gravitate towards bad boys, I gravitated towards really sweet, kind, loving, nurturing guys who, who adored me, who literally adored me. which also speaks for how I felt about myself and what I thought my worth was too,
Lynn:Can you say more about that?
Michelle:I, first of all, I love intellect and I love intelligence. So that was something that I was drawn to, somebody who's very intellectual and, so those tend to be the nerdier guys I'm
Lynn:Mm. Mm.
Michelle:and that's just, that's just the way it is. and I consider myself to be extremely thoughtful. I'm the kind of person if you tell me you're going through something or there's this like a milestone date or something, I put it in my calendar and I follow through.
Lynn:Awesome.
Michelle:Yeah, if I know my friend is suffering and having a challenging time, I'll be the person to come to her door and bring her flowers, that's just in my nature, I just, I love to make people happy and to nurture, I just, I really adore doing that. And, and of course there's a part of me that feels like I wish I had that. and, so it's like giving back to, and, other things. so I, I think of just by very nature of my personality and who I am. So I think that's a big thing, again, being in healthier relationships. But when I look through the intimate relationships, To see what need was being met in each relationship,
Lynn:Okay. Okay.
Michelle:right? So like my husband, for example, is very safe. if we talk about, love languages, he's a man of service. but in other ways, it's very challenging. But that's what I needed. because my parents, the way they showed love to me wasn't through expressive language or intimacy or connection. It was really through doing things for me.
Lynn:Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle:me through buying something or whatever. And that's what he did too,
Lynn:Mm.
Michelle:And, so it's such a recapitulation. I see it. And in that way, and I could say this about him so generous, so loving, so kind, an incredible father, like second to none, literally, Wonderful father, so many great attributes, but that's what I needed. But now who I am today, I need emotional connection. That is paramount. That is really paramount. I don't need anyone to buy me something. I don't need anybody, to do something for me. I'm independent. I could do for myself. I could, financially and otherwise. I need somebody attuned to me emotionally. Somebody that I could rely on, that I could feel that I am connecting to in a deep and meaningful way. And that is very different.
Lynn:Yeah.
Michelle:And that can't be compromised today. It
Lynn:Yeah. So it sounds like putting yourself in therapy at college time or during college really started you on the journey of self discovery and understanding yourself. Is that what swayed you towards psychology or, becoming a therapist in the first place? Mm hmm.
Michelle:Yeah, so originally I thought I wanted to work with families, and it's so funny because I remember my mom once took me to therapy, because, I was, I think I was angry, I was rageful, I had a lot of, anger, rage, disappointment, sadness, and definitely took it out on her, I could say that at times. And so anyway, she brought me to therapy and I remember I literally, I think I went into the session and I felt like my mom was just beating me up in there. You
Lynn:Mm.
Michelle:literally she was just like pouncing on me. And so I refused to go again. I literally refused to go. I sat in the stairwell, I remember, and I absolutely said, I am not coming inside. I am not going. And then that was it. My mom gave up cause I refused. I absolutely refused. It just, again, I don't think the therapist was very skilled to be honest with you, the way she handled me. I don't think I would have responded that way if it was done in a, in a beneficial way, but that's just the way it is, right? I really wanted to help other kids, other families, because of what I went through. That was really what, that's really what I wanted to do. And then when I went to college, and I didn't have anyone, Literally anyone that I knew, personally that was in this field of practice. I didn't have anyone to talk to anyone to consult with. So I was consulting with professors at school. Like what else was I going to do? one of the professors and I knew that I wanted to get a PhD. I knew that's what I wanted to do. initially, talked me out of it and said, Oh, no, you can just get a master's. It's fine. And then, so my path, again, originally I was going to get a dual master's and then, I was talked out of doing that because I was going for a PhD and then, there's so many things that happen along the way. And then actually I was teaching full time cause I thought I wanted to teach full time,
Lynn:Okay. teach psychology or
Michelle:yeah. I was teaching full time and then I ended up getting retrenched cause I was like the last one to be hired. First one fired, unfortunately. so I was looking for another, teaching position and I was like blatantly told to my face, listen, you're a woman and you're white, you're not a minority and it's going to be hard for you to land
Lynn:Mm.
Michelle:which people were, quite honest with me. So I said, you know what, I'm going to go back to school. And I was actually pregnant with my third when I went back to school and I said, I need an edge. So I went back to get a master's of public health, to get that edge. And then after that, I decided I want to teach full time. So yeah, so I was always trying to reinvent myself, always like putting myself out there, like I said, writing, I do a lot of workshops, I do a lot of podcasts, I do a lot of social media, But essentially, the path is always to help people, literally, and then I came up with this method called the ACE method, which is predicated on acceptance, compassion, and empowerment. And that's what like my life's work and life's journey has on. So that's what I wrote my book on. And it's continuing to evolve. I really have an idea for a third book that I want to write, which I, yes, I have already 35 pages for it.
Lynn:Awesome. Awesome. Can I ask you, and this might come directly from your ACE method or not, but it sounds like when you were a younger student, and I picked up on this because it resonates so much, but you heard advice from one person, so it swayed you this way, and you heard advice from another person, and it swayed you this way. How did you go about Quieting those outer voices to really hear what you needed. Is that the ACE method? Or can you talk about how you went through that process?
Michelle:Yeah. So the way it's evolved, I have to say, is, I, the word that I love and that I use so most often is curiosity.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:Yeah. And really to approach our lives with curiosity. And if you think about the word, it's more than being open. It's more than, it's curiosity is an inquiry, Yeah, it's like looking for things, right? It's opening yourself up. So I did hear from people because I was interested what people had to say, but I didn't just end it there. That sounds interesting, right? That's curiosity. Let me see what this is and let me see, what comes out of this. So I feel like I've had, I've been grounded in certain precepts, I'm going to say. And from that has evolved all the things that I do,
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:and I felt this mindfulness space, always, and, I did a TED talk called circumventing emotional avoidance, but it all really centers around our avoidance of ourselves.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:and we need conceptually to have something that we're grounded in order to make life's decisions, in order to build our confidence, in order to empower ourselves to take action based on our values. And this speaks to any kind of stuckness. I don't care what it is. It's not just like work through this issue, this way. This is like a model. This is a way that you walk into your life,
Lynn:So the, can you walk us through, so it's acceptance?
Michelle:Compassion and empowerment.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:And here's another, again, like wild thing. I was writing my book and, the editor came back to me and I had a different word than compassion. I can't even remember what it was. I can't remember. And she said to me, I think you should change the word. I think you should use the word compassion. I said, why do you say that? She said, cause I did a count and you use that word more often than you do the other word. I said, Oh. Oh, but here's this. I found a business card of mine. Literally, this is going back years. I just found one, random, right? And I looked at it, and on the back of the card, literally, it says ace, and it says acceptance, compassion, and empowerment.
Lynn:on the back of your card.
Michelle:Yes, and this was from years ago. It was literally in my brain. I didn't even know it was there. it's so bizarre. yeah. It was subliminal, like some subliminal thing that was there. So the way that I structure it is I believe that we need to know about our neurophysiology. We need to know about how our brain is structured. So I, when I write, it's really important to me to really foundationally include research and to include information that's out there. I don't just give you advice and feedback because I feel like we have to actually, it has to build on something, concrete. it's really important to know the structure of our brain, because we have a lot working against us.
Lynn:Absolutely.
Michelle:do and it's not our fault. It's not our fault. So that's one part of it. The second chapter is on values because that is the foundation to again, all of our decision making and how we empower ourselves and it's a guide to action. So I give very specific examples on how to extrapolate your values, and what that looks like and why it's beneficial and all that. And then I break that. So that's part one. And then part two, three, and four is acceptance, compassion, empowerment. The first part of the chapters are the barriers. It's how to integrate it. And I give a lot of exercises and skills. And then at the end of each chapter, I give a barcode that you could scan for a guided meditation that helps to integrate all the information. like I said, it could, it's so user friendly because some, what I want people to also understand that we could ebb and flow in and out of this, right? Because some of us have, like for myself, I don't have a hard time with the empowerment piece. Because I'm a very disciplined, routined person. So that's not my, that's not where I get stuck. I sometimes get stuck in the self compassion. I do. For
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:that piece, sometimes I need a little tool, I need to like hone in on my skills and tools and recognize that sometimes I have to fine tune that for myself, you know, Some of us could be like in all parts. Some of us could be like, centralized more one part over the other, it again. and that also changes again, depending on where we're at. So for example, I've gone through a period of time where literally because I'm a person who tends to repress what comes along with that. In some respects is like a little bit of a disassociation, so when I'm repressing, sometimes I'll like numb out, you know what I mean? Where I'll literally feel like I have 10 bricks on my shoulders, like I feel exhausted, like I can't move. I literally feel that way physiologically, emotionally, and in every way, and sometimes, that does affect my empowerment. It does affect my action, because I literally feel so bogged down and so overwhelmed, right? and that doesn't happen to me very often, but, especially, Like again, a divorce and going through a huge family transition is a big, huge milestone, right? So undoubtedly I had, who could blame me for feeling that way, it's one of the biggest problems that somebody could go through. So of course I'm going to go through that. So during that time, I really focused a lot of my empowerment and, recognizing and noticing how I was feeling, accepting that I'm in that place, giving myself self compassion and tools and skills to how to move forward. in conjunction with me thinking and feeling that way. I don't have to get rid of my thoughts and feelings. I don't have to condemn myself. I don't have to berate myself. I don't have to insist that I don't feel that way. I can have the feelings and also do at the same time. so it's all a process. It's all a process. And I teach these skills to people of all different ages, I have to tell you. And I have yesterday, I, when I finished my, my day, I sat here and I was talking to a friend of mine and it just so happens I was on two sessions with two people that I've seen for a really long time. And I have a lot of people who like will come to me when they're teens because their parents make them come to me, They're totally not invested, and then guess what happens, later on in life, they kind of circle back to me. They're like, I just remember you were so helpful, but I really didn't give you the time of day, and now I'm ready, and I have a couple I've seen for really long, and where they're at in their lives today compared to where they were, it's literally mind blowing. I, sometimes I just sit here and I gush because I'm so proud of them and they know it, they feel it from me. And I tell it to them. I tell it to them, and it's because of the skills. And they use the lingo, use the language, it's amazing. I wasn't really leaning into my confidence. I was leaving outside of my confidence, and that deterred me from making the decision that was really going to be beneficial for me in this moment. they'll use the language, and we could, it's such a beautiful way for us to have that dialogue also.
Lynn:Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle:Because we're speaking the same language.
Lynn:Absolutely. it sounds like it's all about the continual process and building, because you're not born with these skills, but building a toolbox where you can pull on those tools at any given moment. And it's about finding the right tool and trying it and seeing what works in that moment. which is bad news for people like me who want the silver bullet, but it's just a good reminder that it's all about building the muscle over time and building those tools over
Michelle:Well, you know, what's so wonderful about that. Once you build the muscle, it's like meditation, right? Cause I can't say enough about how valuable meditation is it's research based, evidence based. It does replenish the gray matter of our brain. It changes the structure of our brain, that's proven. I'm not making this up, right? So your brain naturally, right? Creates the space between the thinking and doing because you've trained it to do that. it's like, weightlifting for the brain, so to speak, right? We're doing something really fundamental, creating fundamental change and we're changing those neural pathways. So once you create those pathways, Guess what happens? It's amazing. First of all, it becomes a lot easier, right? Number two, we want to do it over and over again because we have all these neurotransmitters that are like firerocketing, like our dopamine and our oxytocin and all these amazing things and it feels so good. It feels so good to do something and to feel proud of yourself and to feel confident. with my kids, my daughter just this week, she has, a little bit of trouble with math. It's not her strong suit, I could relate. and she studied so hard and she was so worried and she, really was striving and she, stormed into my bedroom, she's like, you'll never believe it. I got a 91 and she was so excited And so and I was so proud of her and I said to her How do you feel about yourself? How does that feel for you? We don't say that to our kids usually.
Lynn:Yeah. We say, I'm so proud of you. Good
Michelle:Yeah That's right.
Lynn:Now do it again next time.
Michelle:externalization, right? But I'm all about internalization because that's where the real change happens, both, on an internal physiological level and otherwise, and that's, it's really about changing our physiology. You know, and that's not easy to do because our brain will resist. Our bodies and our brains, our mind and our body will resist. It goes back to the familiar and the comfortable. And when I say comfortable, air quotes, it constantly will constantly do that. And our brain doesn't want to work hard. does not want to put effort. It wants things to come easy. Like you said, silver bullet. Listen, who wouldn't opt to do things in an effortless way? Who? Whether it's Health and wellness, whether it's parenting, whether it's, intelligence, academics, career, whatever. Who wouldn't take that? Who wouldn't opt out? But we don't have that luxury. We just don't. So it's a choice. We make a choice every single day with everything we do.
Lynn:love that reinforcement of that and it's like second to the focus on or the power of meditation that has been extraordinary for me in building the space between the experience and the reaction, right? Or the experience and how I'm processing things. So I'm curious, Michelle, if there's someone out there looking to redraw their path or looking for what's next and just feeling stuck, what advice would you give to them who, who are considering redrawing their path? in addition to all the amazing advice you've given already.
Michelle:Yeah. So that's my whole book is on that. it really is my whole book, just everything I speak about. So I would say that noticing the stuckness is the most important part.
Lynn:Okay.
Michelle:it is, you have to notice that you're not living your best life, that you're not living the life you want, that you want something different. That is so keenly important. the willingness. I talked about like a rationalization that we make and excuses that we make for our behavior. I think I came up with over 30.
Lynn:Mm
Michelle:That's, and when I read them off people or they check them off, people look at me and they're astounded. They're like, oh my goodness, I did not know that I say all this to my, or I say to them, what happened between thinking I want that piece of cake and then eating like the five pieces of cake that you ate? what was in between? Nothing. I didn't even think about it. It just went in my mouth, automatically, instantaneously, and I'm like, let's slow down a bit. Let's slow down. Nothing went through your mind? I'm gonna challenge you on that. And then they'll say, actually, yeah, I was thinking I'll eat less tomorrow or it's not so bad because I deserve it and I deserve to be celebrated or whatever, right? There's all these rationalizations, but we don't pay attention. So we don't even recognize that they're there. We just behave impulsively and we're on automatic.
Lynn:Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle:slowing down and the willingness to see yourself, that's where the magic is. But you also have to have a foundational core value belief system so that you know how you're guiding your behavior and your actions, right? So it, it really is, like I said, it's this acceptance, compassion, and empowerment, Acceptance isn't accepting mediocrity, noticing and noticing. Self compassion, we don't learn to be self compassionate, we learn to be compassionate towards others. We don't even know what that means. People ask me, they're like, I don't know what that means. I have no clue. I don't know how to do that. What is that?
Lynn:hmm. Mm hmm. We build self criticism. I think that's what we're wired to do.
Michelle:Oh, we're so good at that. Oh my goodness. We're so good at that. I always say also, you could be in the middle of a performance and one little glitch, one thing went wrong. You will hyper focus on that one thing and you will lose sight of everything else that went right, which really comprises most of the situation. But what does our brain do? our brain protects us. We want to know we're not going to ever do this again. We're never going to be in this position again. So it becomes hypervigilant. And that is what our brain constantly does. we can't help it. It's part of our humanism. And by the way, this cuts across race, religion, socioeconomic status, et cetera. this is in all cultures. This is all over the world,
Lynn:Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like, you gave so many tips there, but it's the recognition that you're stuck. It's accepting what's happening with you and then building that self compassion so that you can empower yourself to move forward. To redraw your path and live that life that you want. that's so special. I, I love that. I love that, Michelle. And thank you so much for sharing that wisdom. I'm curious, where can people find you? and is there anything else you would want to share with listeners?
Michelle:Yeah. No, I, like I said, I hope you could hear it in my voice, how passionate I am about the work that I do. the biggest compliment that I get from people I work with, and I, it's such an honor. I can't even tell you the honor that I feel that people share their lives with me and that they consider me safe enough. that is just the biggest honor. I, yes. so I just. I want people to really feel positive about themselves and about their lives because life is so fleeting. Gosh, I see examples of that. every day, this one has stage four cancer, the things that I hear about people and their lives, and there's no time. There's no time. So I can't say that enough. So people could find me the best place is really my website. Cause it has, all my blogs, it has all the information about me, my books, but it's, www. michelle, which is with two L's and Meidenberg is my last name, which is M A I. D E N B E R G. com I write blogs every 3 weeks to a month. I do every Thursday morning at 11. I publish guided meditation on my youtube channel. I have my website. my TED talk, which is circumventing emotional avoidance, which you feel free to listen to that. It's short, it's about 15 minutes. and then of course, my two books. One is, the first book is, Free Your Child From Overeating, and it's 52 Mind Body Strategies for Lifelong Health, but I use it with every age group, so I want to say that. It's not just for kids. and then my second book, which is Ace Your Life, Unleash Your Best Self, and Live the Life You Want. Yeah,
Lynn:Awesome. I will include links to all of those in the show notes. It has been such a delight to talk with you and hear about your experience. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with listeners of Redraw Your Path.
Michelle:And thank you so much for having me on and for your thoughtful, kind, and meaningful questions.
Lynn:Thanks, Michelle. Thanks for listening to Redraw Your Path with me, Lynn Debilzen. If you like the episode, please rate and review. That helps more listeners find me. And don't be shy, reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn and sign up for my e-newsletter at redrawyourpath.com. I can't wait to share more inspiring stories with you. See you next week.